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UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
BEFORE THE HONORABLE ARTHUR S. WEISSBRODT, JUDGE
In Re: ) Case No. 98-51326-ASW
) Chapter 13
)
HOWARD KEITH HENSON, )
) TRIAL
) Volume I
Debtor. ) Pages 1 to 179
)
)
) Friday, September 27, 2002
) San Jose, California
Appearances:
For the Debtor: Law Offices of Stanley A. Zlotoff
By: Stanley A. Zlotoff, Attorney at Law
300 South First Street, Suite 215
San Jose, California 95113
For Creditor Religious Moxon & Kobrin
Technology Center: By: Helena K. Kobrin, Attorney at Law
3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
Los Angeles, California 90010
McPharlin, Sprinkles & Thomas
By: Elaine M. Seid, Attorney at Law
10 Almaden Boulevard, Suite 1460
San Jose, California 95113
Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
By: Samuel D. Rosen, Attorney at Law
75 East 55th Street
New York, New York 10022-4597
Electronic Court United States Bankruptcy Court
Recorder: Clerk of the Court
Liz Armendariz
280 South First Street, Room 3035
San Jose, California 95113
(408) 535-5003
Certified Electronic Palmer Reporting Services
Transcriber: P. O. Box 30727
Stockton, California 95213-0727
Proceedings recorded by digital recording;
transcript produced by federally-approved transcription
service. I N D E X
Creditor's Motions: page 3
Opening Statement on behalf of the Creditor: page 32
Creditor's List of Exhibits: page 58
Debtor's Response to Creditor's Exhibits: page 92
Opening Statement on behalf of the Debtor: page 126
Witnesses:
Direct Cross Redirect Recross
Victoria Arel Lucas
By Mr. Zlotoff: 153
Exhibits: Received in Evidence
None.
3
1 Friday, September 27, 2002 9:09 o'clock a.m.
2 P R O C E E D I N G S
3 THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please
4 be seated.
5 Ms. Seid, I understand that there's some concern, that
6 you want to have use of some court equipment?
7 You need to be at a microphone, please.
8 MS. SEID: That's correct, Your Honor. We were
9 interested in having a television and a VCR made available this
10 morning.
11 THE COURT: First of all, those have to be ordered in
12 advance and set up. Nobody shows up the day of trial and asks
13 for them. And, secondly, is that on your exhibit list?
14 MR. ROSEN: The video -
15 THE COURT: You need the microphone, please.
16 MR. ROSEN: The videotape that we -
17 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry. Let me call the case and
18 get your appearances. I got into the technical problem first.
19 Keith Henson.
20 May I have appearances?
21 MR. ZLOTOFF: Stan Zlotoff for debtor.
22 MR. ROSEN: For creditor Religious Technology Center
23 Samuel D. Rosen, Paul, Hastings, Janofsky and Walker.
24 MS. KOBRIN: Helena Kobrin, Moxon and Kobrin, also for
25 the debtor.
4
1 THE COURT: What exactly is this - Ms. - Ms. Seid,
2 would you come forward to the microphone, please - what exactly
3 is the exhibit?
4 MS. SEID: First of all, I'll state my appearance.
5 Elaine Seid of McPharlin, Sprinkles and Thomas
6 appearing on behalf of the creditor.
7 I'm going to ask Mr. Rosen to respond to the Court,
8 Your Honor.
9 MR. ROSEN: The exhibit which is marked -
10 THE COURT: You don't have the microphone. You need
11 the microphone every time, or we won't get on the record -
12 MR. ROSEN: You know I'll tell you something. Many
13 years ago Judge Feinberg in the Second Circuit told me, "Mr.
14 Rosen, you're one of the few attorneys who appear here who do
15 not need the microphone."
16 THE COURT: Yeah. I was a law -
17 MR. ROSEN: My voice tends to carry.
18 THE COURT: I was a law clerk in that courthouse. I
19 know that court.
20 MR. ROSEN: In the Second Circuit?
21 THE COURT: I was a law clerk on the District Court -
22 MR. ROSEN: Oh.
23 THE COURT: - for Judge Demmick.
24 MR. ROSEN: In answer to your question we have marked
25 as an exhibit a video - and it's been in the exhibits since the
5
1 first joint pretrial order, a year and a half ago, - a videotape
2 of excerpts of deposition taken of Mr. Henson in the copyright
3 case. We want to play the videotape excerpts for this Court.
4 They relate to the issue - the videotape relates to the issue of
5 bad faith.
6 THE COURT: It's my understanding, and it hasn't been
7 briefed, and I had wanted any issue that might be of concern,
8 that that's a matter of discretion. There's certainly a
9 transcript available, but I don't know whether you object. If
10 you object, then I'd like to know about it.
11 MR. ZLOTOFF: Well, can coun- -
12 THE COURT: To the video, rather. I'm not talking
13 about the transcript. I'm just - I'm not talking about the
14 transcript yet. I'm just talking about the video.
15 MR. ROSEN: The video is the official record of the
16 deposition, not the transcript. And it was - and for that
17 reason at trial before Judge Whyte it was the video that was
18 shown to the jury, not the transcript.
19 And it's - by the way, it's a highlight reel. It's
20 certain sections of his deposition given over, I think, two or
21 three days. They were - it was approved by Judge Whyte as
22 appropriate excerpts to be shown to the jury. And, as I say,
23 because the video was the official record under the Federal
24 Rules, I think it's Rule 30, that the video was shown, not the
25 transcript read.
6
1 THE COURT: Was a copy of it provided to Mr. Zlotoff
2 in advance - of the video?
3 MS. KOBRIN: On August 1st, Your Honor.
4 MR. ROSEN: Yeah. And it's been listed since
5 September of 2001.
6 MR. ZLOTOFF: I don't remember getting a videotape. I
7 reviewed the - your exhibit list last night, and I noticed one
8 videotape that was designated. And I looked in - in the - to
9 the exhibit, and all I saw was like two pages of mostly, I won't
10 say redacted, but certainly not a complete excerpt of what - of
11 what the videotape purported to be.
12 MR. ROSEN: I don't have to put in an entire
13 videotape. I can put excerpts.
14 THE COURT: But you have to provide it to him.
15 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
16 THE COURT: You have to provide him the full
17 videotape.
18 MS. KOBRIN: There were three separate -
19 THE COURT: Ms. Kobrin, I need to ask you to use the
20 mic. Even if Mr. Rosen has a big barrel voice, you don't.
21 MS. KOBRIN: I don't, I know.
22 There were actually three separate videotapes that
23 were included in the - in the exhibits that were given to him on
24 August 1st. There was a sleeve -
25 THE COURT: Two months ago.
7
1 MS. KOBRIN: - just - just like in your set, Your
2 Honor, or in here - whoops, sorry. There were sleeves, you
3 know, with the videotapes in them.
4 MR. ZLOTOFF: Oh.
5 MS. KOBRIN: In the set that was sent to Mr. Zlotoff.
6 MR. ZLOTOFF: All right. I - I may have overlooked
7 it. It's possible.
8 THE COURT: And where are they in the Judge's copy?
9 MR. ROSEN: Volume IV.
10 MS. KOBRIN: Volume IV, Exhibits 213, 214, and 2- -
11 no, I'm sorry - let's see. 2- - 213, 214, 215, I believe.
12 THE COURT: I don't see any sleeve in mine. Would you
13 look in the official?
14 MS. KOBRIN: Oh, we put it in one set, we didn't put
15 them in both on the Court copies.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Zlotoff, can you come up and
17 look at this because it would - it's fairly pronounced. Would
18 you have gotten this?
19 MR. ZLOTOFF: You know, Your Honor, I - I've probably
20 overlooked it. I'm not - I'm not going to state that I either
21 saw it or didn't see it, that I probably overlooked it.
22 THE COURT: Is your office close enough that if we
23 break for lunch you can go look?
24 MR. ZLOTOFF: Yes.
25 THE COURT: All right. So that's what we'll do.
8
1 We'll use it after lunch.
2 MR. ZLOTOFF: Well, -
3 THE COURT: And we'll have it set it up. That will
4 give us a chance to -
5 MR. ZLOTOFF: Well, Your Honor, could I - maybe I
6 should just address a threshold issue. It purports to be a 1996
7 deposition. And I don't understand what possible relevance that
8 would have.
9 THE COURT: When was this case filed?
10 MR. ZLOTOFF: '98.
11 THE COURT: What possible relevance could a 1996
12 deposition have to whether this case was filed in good faith?
13 MR. ROSEN: The standard of good faith is not limited
14 to the instant this case is filed, as Your Honor knows. There
15 has been a long pattern of misconduct by Mr. Henson, including
16 the misuse of the - of the Bankruptcy Court in the filing of the
17 petition in this case as part of his ongoing enterprise to
18 attack the Scientology religion.
19 This videotape shows his state of mind, his mens rea,
20 his intention to just for amusement and stature to attack RTC.
21 That carries forward in the - in the good faith-bad faith
22 argument and it's going to come forward under 1307 to his
23 conduct in the filing of this petition at a time when there was
24 only one creditor and there was no claim that had been - that
25 had been liquidated against him. And it's going to continue on
9
1 in terms of his misconduct during this case, the false
2 statements in his schedules and the like.
3 We also have - to the extent there's any question
4 about it, it's a totality-of-circumstances test, which I'm sure
5 Your Honor is aware of, and we have caselaw for that very
6 proposition.
7 We also have caselaw for the proposition that although
8 the filing of a bankruptcy petition for the purpose of derailing
9 a state court litigation -
10 THE COURT: Was there state court litigation that
11 was -
12 MR. ROSEN: No, no. This is a federal court. I'm
13 saying that there isn't - we found no case of - on the
14 proposition of - of filing a bankruptcy petition when you're not
15 in reality in financial need, for the purpose of derailing a
16 state court litigation. And we've got cases, controlling
17 authority from the Ninth Circuit and the Ninth Circuit BAP and
18 from the - another District Court in California for the
19 proposition that while that alone per se is not cause for
20 dismissal under 1307, it is certainly one of the elements that
21 the Court needs to look at in terms of determining cause and bad
22 faith.
23 So to get back to Mr. Zlotoff's contentions or his
24 question, the bad faith begins in 1996 with Mr. Henson stating,
25 admitting that the whole purpose of this exercise for his
10
1 amusement, the cost of litigation comes out of his, quote,
2 recreation budget. And his sole purpose - he's never been a
3 Scientologist - his sole purpose is to taunt Scientology.
4 And this is - I will tell you, I've been litigating
5 now in the federal courts 34 years. I have seen copyright cases
6 where the infringer's motive is to make money, you know, a
7 Napster type case. I've seen cases where infringements are
8 accidental, where somebody didn't know somebody had written
9 something, or whatever.
10 I have never seen, and there is no case I'm aware of
11 ever reported in any federal court where the copyright infringer
12 says, 'The reason I infringed was to taunt the - the copyright
13 owner.' This is one of a kind. I think the Judge, Judge Whyte,
14 fairly well found that himself and - and the jury certainly
15 found it. And, Your Honor, can -
16 THE COURT: Well, excuse me, Mr. Rosen, can I
17 interrupt for a second. The pl- - Mr. Zlotoff is going to go
18 first because he has to prove good faith, so I assume you're
19 going to go first on your plan.
20 MR. ROSEN: I'm not sure that's right, if I can
21 address it. If you'll bear with me for 30 seconds, I have a
22 couple of other issues to address.
23 Number one, I wanted to hand up to the Court on this
24 very issue of good faith-bad faith, the decision of Justice
25 Whyte entered on September 26th yesterday. Judge Whyte has put
11
1 this decision under file - under seal. And - and it cannot be
2 published outside the court obviously. I am not making it an
3 exhibit unless Your Honor will file it under seal because I
4 don't want to violate Judge Whyte's order. But I would like to
5 hand it up, and I think what Your Honor - it will show Your
6 Honor what I'm talking about.
7 There's only - it's a determination on a contempt
8 motion. There is one part of which is absolutely critical and
9 that is a footnote which appears on the bottom of page 5. Your
10 Honor's welcome to see the whole thing.
11 THE COURT: I'll take it. I'll look at it.
12 MR. ROSEN: And, Mr. Zlotoff, you have a copy, right?
13 MR. ZLOTOFF: This was the one Judge Whyte -
14 MR. ROSEN: Yesterday. Yesterday.
15 MR. ZLOTOFF: - from yesterday? Yes, that's fine. I
16 don't have any problem with that.
17 THE COURT: I've read the footnote. I haven't read
18 the whole decision, but I'm not going to take -
19 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor's welcome to. I think the
20 footnote -
21 THE COURT: That's fine.
22 MR. ROSEN: I rose also because of the question of who
23 goes first. While it - Your Honor set this as a trial on our
24 motion to dismiss for bad faith and indicated in the original
25 decision back two years ago that it would then be combined with
12
1 the objections to the plan.
2 As I analyze it, it's one combined trial. And I'm not
3 sure it makes a great deal of difference except in the following
4 respect. Under 1307, as I have now been educated by my
5 bankruptcy co-counsel, to - since you know I'm not a bankruptcy
6 attorney - under 1307 if you find bad faith you must do one of
7 two things. You must either dismiss the petition or convert it
8 to a 7.
9 It strikes me that that is a threshold issue, because
10 if you find bad faith and then proceed to do one or the other of
11 the two options available, obviously the option that's not
12 available is to even hear a motion to confirm a 13 plan, then
13 the second part of the trial, which is the debtor's application
14 for confirmation of the 13 plan and our objections to it, truly
15 becomes moot. The -
16 THE COURT: How long will your trial go if you go
17 first?
18 MR. ROSEN: It's all - it's all exhibits. We have no
19 witnesses. I'm just going to walk you through the exhibits and
20 show you, you know, what the basis of the good faith-bad faith
21 argument is under 1307. In accordance with your order limiting
22 the amount of time, I can assure you it will not take me 20
23 hours to do that. I -
24 THE COURT: How long will it take?
25 MR. ROSEN: Oh, I expect probably an hour to an hour
13
1 and a half. Plus part of our presentation is this videotape,
2 which I think is 19 minutes. That - that is part of our case.
3 We would then rest on our motion for cause - to
4 dismiss for cause, if you will. I guess the statutory language
5 under 1307 is cause, but the caselaw says bad faith is cause.
6 We would then rest.
7 And if Your Honor wants to make a decision at that
8 point, that's fine, and we wouldn't have to deal with the motion
9 to - to confirm the 13. If you wanted - Your Honor doesn't want
10 to and wants to proceed with the rest of the trial, that's fine,
11 too. But I think that at least Your Honor should have the
12 option because the motion-to-confirm hearing is going to take
13 considerably longer.
14 I understand from Mr. Zlotoff, and he can correct me
15 if I'm wrong, but he intends to call a witness, Ms. Lucas, the -
16 from my conversations with Mr. Zlotoff, and we've been kind of
17 candid with each other, he's telling me what he's going to try
18 and prove. I've told him that he has major evidentiary
19 objections to overcome. This will take some amount of time. I
20 can't tell you how long because it's not my witness. I can tell
21 you the cross-examination will take three or four hours
22 probably. And we've got some battles over exhibits.
23 So, you know, I'll do whatever Your Honor wants. It's
24 a combined trial, so I'm not sure it makes all of that
25 difference, but if Your Honor of a mind to appreciate that, a
14
1 dismissal - a determination of bad faith or cause under 1307
2 moots the 13. Whereas the opposite is not true. The opposite
3 is not true because even if you deny the 13 you still have to
4 deal with the bad faith because under 1307 the - the remedy is
5 either dismissal or conversion. So denial of the 13 would not
6 moot our motion to dismiss, but the reverse is true.
7 One other thing I wanted to raise to Your Honor on a
8 preliminary basis is this. You issued a trial order - and this
9 is the last item I have to - to raise. You issued a trial order
10 on July 12th, I believe it was, that set forth in several
11 paragraphs things that had to be filed. And I think it was
12 paragraph 5 that said, "Failure to comply with the time limits
13 in this and the following requirements under this will result in
14 sanctions, including" -
15 THE COURT: Probably says "may result."
16 MR. ROSEN: - "may" - "may" - I'm sorry. You're right
17 - "may result in sanctions."
18 One of the requirements was the filing of a pretrial
19 brief on the 13th of September. We filed our pretrial brief.
20 Mr. Zlotoff filed none. In fact, he had no intention of filing
21 any until on September 20th we argued before Judge Whyte, came
22 up indirectly in terms of whether this trial's going to go
23 forward or not.
24 We said, "How is it going to go forward? The debtor
25 hasn't even complied. He hasn't even filed a pretrial brief."
15
1 And I think one of the specific sanctions in your order that -
2 for noncompliance is postponing the trial. Well, that's not a
3 sanction because that hurts us.
4 But, in any event, it's at that point that Mr. Zlotoff
5 said, "Okay, I'll file a pretrial brief."
6 As your own calendar for today notes, Mr. Zlotoff's
7 brief was not filed until the 23rd of September. And that's 10
8 days after your order and only after the prompting before Judge
9 Whyte, like - and Judge Whyte asked him the question, "Why
10 haven't you complied?"
11 So I would as a - and this is as a threshold matter,
12 Your Honor. I would ask you to do what your order says. I
13 think that is appropriate, to strike the brief. I think it is
14 appropriate to impose sanctions for counsel's failure to comply
15 with your order.
16 And I would hope that, you know, the - that Your
17 Honor's order meant what it said and that there is a balance in
18 this proceeding that Your Honor intends to hold the debtor and
19 his counsel to compliance, as Your Honor has held us.
20 And that's the last preliminary matter I have, Your
21 Honor.
22 MR. ZLOTOFF: Can I respond, Your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Mr. Zlotoff.
24 MR. ZLOTOFF: First of all, as to the brief, RTC
25 didn't file a quote-unquote brief either. They filed a two-page
16
1 statement which was nothing like a brief. It bas- - it didn't
2 have anything regarding facts. It didn't have anything
3 regarding issues. It didn't have anything regarding legal
4 argument. It basically was a list of items that it wanted Your
5 Honor to take notice of that had been filed previously. That's
6 not a brief. That's not responsive to the trial court's order
7 either.
8 In fact we were both of the same mind apparently, at
9 having just prepared voluminous documents just a few days
10 earlier with regard to motions in limine, motions for summary
11 judgment that we had papered this proceeding to death, and no
12 more need be done. That's exactly the course you took. So my
13 brief was as deficient as yours, even though your deficient
14 brief was filed on time. And that's what I told Judge Whyte.
15 MR. ROSEN: And Judge Whyte rejected that, Your Honor.
16 MR. ZLOTOFF: He didn't say a thing.
17 MR. ROSEN: Excuse me. Judge Whyte said -
18 THE COURT: Look, Mr. Rosen, one counsel is talking.
19 MR. ROSEN: Sorry.
20 THE COURT: He let you finish your argument. Now you
21 let him finish.
22 MR. ROSEN: I will, Your Honor. I apologize.
23 MR. ZLOTOFF: With regard to the argument as to
24 ordering of which side goes first, I don't know that it makes a
25 difference. I don't understand the argument, to be honest with
17
1 you. If I go first and I can't prove pick - I can't prove the
2 best-interests-of-creditors test, I lose. If I lose
3 confirmation -
4 THE COURT: Well, do you - do you lose if he's
5 unsecured - if he's not unsecured?
6 MR. ZLOTOFF: If my plan -
7 THE COURT: Does he have standing to raise that if
8 he's not - if he's a secured creditor?
9 MR. ZLOTOFF: Right. Well, pick another issue then.
10 Pick anything you want -
11 THE COURT: Well, you pick another issue.
12 MR. ZLOTOFF: Pick feas- -
13 THE COURT: It doesn't matter. But, anyway, if you
14 can't -
15 MR. ZLOTOFF: Pick feasibility -
16 THE COURT: If you can't make your case, -
17 MR. ZLOTOFF: If I can't prove my case in chief, then
18 I don't get a plan confirmed and it follows that you are either
19 going to say I can amend it or I can't amend it or it should be
20 dismissed or converted. I'm not sure we end up any - at a
21 different place regardless of who comes first. I mean bad faith
22 is one element -
23 THE COURT: Well, the way that works, as I understand
24 it logically, Mr. Zlotoff, is that you tried to confirm this
25 plan. And you asked for time to put forward another plan. And
18
1 Mr. Rosen says, "No, I want to go forward with my motion."
2 MR. ZLOTOFF: Right.
3 THE COURT: And so he would then, assuming that I was
4 going to let you go forward would another plan, -
5 MR. ZLOTOFF: Right.
6 THE COURT: - want to present his motion.
7 MR. ZLOTOFF: Yeah, but -
8 THE COURT: And that wouldn't necessarily be mooted by
9 your failure to prove your case in the first instance.
10 MR. ZLOTOFF: Right. But I take his issue with his
11 pronouncement that if you find bad faith you must necessarily
12 dismiss the case. I don't think that's true -
13 THE COURT: I don't have to necessarily dismiss the
14 case.
15 MR. ZLOTOFF: No. I've - I've been involved in cases
16 where bad faith has been fined - found on the basis that, for
17 example, two low of a percentage plan, so a judge would say -
18 THE COURT: But here's the problem with this, all of
19 this, and - when you're coming in. You come in the minute of
20 trial and say, "We want court equipment." Somebody else comes
21 in - or one of you is coming in and saying, "I want to go
22 first."
23 We met specifically a short time ago to iron out all
24 the pretrial problems. And none - nobody asked for equipment,
25 nobody said, "I want to go first." Nobody said, "If you decide
19
1 this, then you must do that." Nobody said any of that. So it's
2 all new, it's all on the morning of the trial, and here we are.
3 Do you want to go first?
4 MR. ZLOTOFF: Your Honor, I really don't care. It
5 doesn't matter to me except with regard to the tape. My only
6 concern about the tape is whether it's a complete tape or
7 whether it's been doctored, whether there have been excerpts. I
8 haven't seen it.
9 THE COURT: Well, okay, but -
10 MR. ZLOTOFF: And, quite frankly, I don't have a
11 machine in my office to look at it, in any event.
12 THE COURT: I'm not saying, but I at least want to
13 know that you received it. If you didn't receive it, then
14 they're not going to be able to present it. If you did receive
15 it, then I have a different question. I have the relevancy
16 question.
17 MR. ZLOTOFF: Right.
18 THE COURT: And I have - whether he has an absolute
19 right - see, you didn't brief that either - whether he has an
20 absolute right to play it because it's the, quote, official
21 record. If he does, that's one issue. If he doesn't, that's
22 another issue. None - none of this is briefed. So it's a
23 problem.
24 Now do you want to go first or not? If you say you
25 don't care and you want to have this document case presented
20
1 first, then I will adjourn for a couple of minutes to let you go
2 back to the office to make sure that you received this. And in
3 the meantime it would be nice if somebody gave me some authority
4 as to whether he has an absolute right to - to present it or
5 whether I have any discretion in the matter.
6 MR. ROSEN: I'm not in - I will be happy to do that,
7 except I don't understand the question. The - the tape is being
8 presented as -
9 THE COURT: Or is there an objection to the tape?
10 See, other than -
11 MR. ROSEN: Then one -
12 THE COURT: Wait, wait.
13 Is there an objection to the tape other than they may
14 not have given it to you? If there is none, then it's not an
15 issue.
16 MR. ZLOTOFF: Well, yeah, I had stated that I
17 questioned its relevancy.
18 THE COURT: Oh, I understand. But it -
19 MR. ROSEN: You just stated that now.
20 THE COURT: Please. No, he didn't. He discussed this
21 before.
22 Sit down, please, Mr. Rosen.
23 MR. ZLOTOFF: That's when we got into the discussion.
24 THE COURT: To save time, because I can't order briefs
25 at this point, I want to get this done. To save time I would
21
1 let him, if you have no objection, if you actually got it, I
2 would let him present the tape, but I wouldn't rule on its
3 admissibility until after the trial. And I will order briefs on
4 the admissibility of that document.
5 It can - I will hold the ruling on admissibility, but
6 to save time and to allow it to proceed, I will take it subject
7 to a ruling subsequently on admissibility. So that's what I
8 will do.
9 If you didn't get it, I won't let it in. And I'll let
10 him present the written transcript.
11 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can I just have 30 seconds?
12 Two things.
13 Number one, with respect to the filing of the brief,
14 your order doesn't require - doesn't specify what is required in
15 a pretrial brief. We filed a pretrial brief which said we
16 incorporate and we identified the documents. We've addressed
17 these issues to a fair-thee-well, to a redundancy. We have
18 killed I don't know how many trees starting in July of 2000 with
19 the first motion to dismiss and the summary judgment and the