From: hkhenson@netcom.com (Keith Henson) Subject: Re: I've got mine... Date: 1996/05/15 Message-ID: distribution: inet sender: hkhenson@netcom.netcom.com references: <4jecjl$be4_001@news.erie.net> <317BA75F.1E2@neptune.net> <4lsfu7$rr0@news1.shell> <4lu1e8$odn@news1.shell> organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,misc.legal,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.2600 0001 This is cleaned up some--I put in all the fixes I hand corrected on copy before I signed it plus a few. Mostly they are spelling or typos, I left the original in and put the corrections in []. What strikes me on the second reading of this transcript is how clueless poor Mr. Lieberman was. I realize that a substantial part of this deposition is me educating him on the basics of Internet culture and inferstructure. Well, I guess someone had to do it . From all I can tell, Eric Lieberman is actually a reasonable person, he just has a client hell bent on looking foolish. Eric and Tomas Hogan, and all the rest of the outside lawyers are doing their part in bringing down CoS by draining its coffers. Don't underbill guys. Keith Henson PS, Shelley reports and comments on the deposition in **Biased Journalism** Vol 2, No 10. 01 02 03 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 04 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 05 05 06 06 07 RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, a ) 07 California non-profit ) 08 corporation, ) 08 ) 09 Plaintiff, ) 09 ) 10 vs. ) No. C-96 20271 RMW 10 ) 11 H. KEITH HENSON, an individual, ) 11 ) 12 Defendant. ) 12 ________________________________) 13 13 14 15 16 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF H. KEITH HENSON 17 18 19 Date: Wednesday, May 8, 1996 19 20 Time: 9:22 a.m. 20 21 Location: LAW OFFICES OF THOMAS R. HOGAN 21 60 South Market Street, Suite 1125 22 San Jose, California 95113-2332 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 0002 01 A P P E A R A N C E S: 01 02 02 03 For the Plaintiff: LAW OFFICES OF THOMAS R. HOGAN 03 BY: THOMAS R. HOGAN, ESQ. 04 60 South Market Street 04 Suite 1125 05 San Jose, California 95113-2332 05 (408) 292-7600 06 06 and RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD, 07 KRINSKY & LIEBERMAN 07 BY: ERIC M. LIEBERMAN, ESQ. 08 740 Broadway 08 Fifth Floor 09 New York, New York, 10003 09 (212) 254-1111 10 10 and BOWLES & MOXIN 11 BY: HELENA K. KOBRIN, ESQ. 11 7629 Fulton Avenue 12 North Hollywood, California 12 91605 13 (213) 960-1933 13 14 For the Defendant: H. KEITH HENSON, pro per 14 799 Coffey Court 15 San Jose, California 95123 15 16 Videotaped by: REIZNER & REIZNER 16 BY: SUSAN REIZNER 17 7179 Via Maria 17 San Jose, California 95139 18 (408) 226-6339 18 19 Also present: Grady Ward, Shelley Thomson, 19 Warren McShane 20 20 Reported by: WEBER & VOLZING, INC. 21 BY: CAROL WIBLE TORRES, 21 CSR #3391 22 60 South Market Street 22 Suite 770 23 San Jose, California 95113 23 (408) 292-2573 24 24 25 25 26 26 0003 01 INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS 02 Page: 03 BY MR. LIEBERMAN.......................8 04 BY MR. HENSON..........................196 05 FURTHER BY MR. LIEBERMAN...............202 06 07 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 08 Plaintiff's Exhibits: Page: 09 1 Multi-page document, first page 10 entitled "Complaint for Declaratory 11 Judgement" in the matter Henson vs. 12 Federal Bureau of Investigation...........18 13 2 Two-page posting dated 21 Feb 1995 14 stating "List of Published Literary 15 Works"....................................19 16 3 Two-page posting dated 23 Feb 1995........24 17 4 One-page posting dated 2 Mar 1995.........32 18 5 One-page posting dated 14 Mar 1995........34 19 6 One-page posting dated 5 Apr 1995.........54 20 7 One-page posting dated 6 Apr 1995.........60 21 8 One-page posting dated 7 Apr 1995.........66 22 9 Two-page posting dated 9 Apr 1995.........75 23 10 One-page posting dated 21 Jul 1995........80 24 11 One-page posting dated 26 Jul 1995........84 25 12 Two-page document to Mr. Henson from 26 Helena K. Kobrin dated 27 Jul 1995........88 0004 01 13 Five-page posting dated 18 Apr 1996.......92 02 14 One-page postiing dated 13 Aug 1995.......104 03 15 One-page posting dated 12 Aug 1995........112 04 16 One-page posting dated 19 Sep 1995........120 05 17 One-page posting dated 26 Sep 1995........122 06 18 Four-page posting dated 30 Mar 1996.......138 07 19 Three-page posting dated 31 Mar 1996......144 08 20 Four-page posting dated 3 Apr 1996........148 09 21 One-page posting dated 16 Apr 1996........156 10 22 One-page posting dated 17 Apr 1996........157 11 23 Multi-page document, first page entitled 12 "Objections and Responses to Request for 13 Production of Documents" in the matter 14 Religious Technology Center vs. H. Keith 15 Henson....................................159 16 24 Multi-page document, first page entitled 17 "Answer and Counterclaims; Demand for 18 Jury Trial" in the matter Religious 19 Technology Center vs. H. Keith Henson.....171 20 25 14-page document entitled "HCO Bulletin 21 of 23 April 1991".........................192 22 23 Defendant's Exhibits: Page: 24 A Page from June 1996 Playboy stating at 25 the top "Dear Playboy"....................197 26 B One-page document, undated, stating at 0005 01 the top "However, it is possible to get 02 the "secret" scientology documents from 03 altavista and dejanews"...................198 04 C Seven-page document, undated, stating 05 at the top "Part 4: The Trap Slams 06 Shut".....................................199 07 D 12-page document filed April 11, 1996, 08 United States Court of Appeals for the 09 Ninth Circuit.............................200 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 0006 01 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the 02 record. Today is May 8th, 1996. The time is 9:22 03 a.m.. This is Volume I of the deposition of Mr. Keith 04 Henson in the matter of RTC versus Henson conducted at 05 the offices of Tom Hogan, 60 South Market, San Jose, 06 California. It is being videotaped on behalf of the 07 plaintiff by Susan Reizner, a certified legal video 08 specialist and notary from Reizner & Reizner Film & 09 Video, 7179 Via Maria in San Jose, California. I 10 certify that I am not financially interested in this 11 action and am neither a relative nor an employee of 12 any of the parties. 13 Will all counsel please identify 14 yourselves and your clients. 15 MR. HOGAN: I'm Thomas R. Hogan. I 16 represent the plaintiff, Religious Technology Center. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Eric Lieberman. I also 18 represent the plaintiff and I will be doing the 19 questioning today. 20 MS. KOBRIN: Helena Kobrin. I also 21 represent the plaintiff. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court 23 reporter please identify yourself and swear in the 24 wintess. 25 THE REPORTER: Carol Wible Torres, Weber & 26 Volzing. 0007 01 H. KEITH HENSON, 02 being first duly sworn by the Certified Shorthand 03 Reporter to tell the truth, the whole truth and 04 nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 05 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Also present here 06 today is Mr. Grady Ward pursuant to a ruling by 07 Magistrate Judge Invante yesterday. Mr. Ward is 08 permitted to be present at the deposition, but no 09 statements may be made by Mr. Ward. There will be no 10 interference by Mr. Ward with the proceedings. There 11 shall be no communication between Mr. Ward and 12 Mr. Henson during the deposition and there shall be no 13 communication between Mr. Ward and Mr. Henson at 14 breaks in the deposition until Mr. Henson's 15 deposition is concluded. 16 There is also present somebody -- can you 17 state your name? I don't know what your name is. 18 MS. THOMSON: My name is Shelley Thomson. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Somebody named Shelley 20 Thomson who is an observer apparently. 21 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. 22 Mr. Henson -- 23 A You may as well identify the remaining party. 24 Aren't they all supposed to be identified? 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: If you want them 26 identified. Mr. McShane is also here on behalf of the 0008 01 plaintiff. 02 EXAMINATION BY MR. LIEBERMAN: 03 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Mr. Henson, you 04 are the defendant in this action; is that right? 05 A That's what I understand. 06 Q Yes. Have you ever been deposed before in any 07 legal action? 08 A Yes. 09 Q How many times? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q More than once? 12 A Yes. 13 Q More than two or three? 14 A I don't remember how long that went. I don't 15 remember how many episodes. 16 Q Are you familiar with the procedure in a 17 deposition? 18 A Approximately. It's been a long time. 19 Q Okay. To review with you, I will ask you a 20 series of questions. You are to restrict your 21 responses to answers to those questions. If you have 22 objections to the form of the question, you may state 23 those. I can either choose to rephrase the question 24 or to ask you nevertheless to respond to it. Your 25 objection will then be noted for the record. 26 Objections on the basis of any other matter, such as 0009 01 relevance, et cetera, under the federal rules are 02 reserved until further proceedings. If you have 03 objections based upon privilege, you also may state 04 those. Do you understand that? 05 A Yes, I do. I also understand that I, being my 06 own -- representing myself in this matter, that I can 07 ask myself questions and introduce exhibits. 08 Q Well, I've never seen anybody ask themselves 09 questions except in comedies and I -- 10 A Well, that's a good description of what we're 11 doing. 12 Q Mr. Henson, one thing you're going to have to do 13 is wait until I finish. You should understand that 14 right now. If there are statements you wish to make 15 at the end of my questioning, you may make them 16 provided that they are pertinent to the proceedings. 17 I then get the opportunity to further cross-examine 18 you about those. Okay. 19 Now, can you briefly -- when were you 20 born? 21 A July 12th, 1942. 22 Q Okay. Briefly tell me what your educational 23 background was. 24 A BSEE. 25 Q Where? 26 A University of Arizona. 0010 01 Q When did you graduate there? 02 A '69. 03 Q Any further education? 04 A No. 05 Q Okay. What was your employment after you 06 graduated? 07 A Engineering, programming jobs. 08 Q Where? 09 A Long list. Heinrich Geoexploration Company, 10 Burr-Brown Research -- 11 Q Give me a time period for each of these. 12 A Without reference to stuff, it would -- to 13 things, it would only be very approximate. 14 Q I'm just looking for approximations. 15 A Early '70's. 16 Q Yes. 17 A Analog Precision. After that, essentially I 18 worked as a consultant. 19 Q Was this -- where were you living at the time? 20 A Tucson. Most of it. 21 Q Until when did you live in Tucson? 22 A 1985. 23 Q Then you moved up here to San Jose? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And what's your present employment? 26 A Consultant, self-employed. 0011 01 Q Consultant to whom, to what? 02 A I work for a variety of companies. Some years 03 it's been as many as six companies, some years it's 04 been as few as two. 05 Q And on what matters do you consult? 06 A Systems analysis, hardware design, programming. 07 Variety of things. Mixed hardware, software 08 primarily. 09 Q Uh-huh. Okay. Are you married? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you have children? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. This is your second marriage? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Are you a regular participant on news 16 groups on the internet? 17 A Yes. 18 Q For how long have you participated in various 19 news groups? 20 A I'm not exactly certain. Perhaps as much as 21 eight years. 22 Q Okay. What news groups do you regularly 23 participate in? 24 A There's a list of them in my responses. I think 25 I mentioned Libertarian, Space, certain political 26 kinds of things, Cypherpunks, EFF, the various groups 0012 01 on that one. Nanotechnology, Cryonics -- 02 Q Is it fair to say -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to 03 interrupt. I thought you finished your answer. 04 A That's not exclusive. I -- I occasionally jump 05 into other kinds of news groups. For example, I'm 06 currently signed onto alt.sovereign something, I 07 forget what it is, alt.activism.sovereignty or 08 something like that. 09 Q Okay. You also participate in 10 alt.religion.scientology, do you not? 11 A Yes, I certainly do. I can even give you a 12 rough -- rough count of how many postings I've made to 13 that in the past 14 months. 14 Q Okay. I may ask you for that. Now, it's fair 15 to say you spend a fair amount of time each week on 16 the internet participating in these numerous news 17 groups; is that right? 18 A Far less time than most people spend watching 19 television. 20 Q That wasn't my question. 21 A I spend maybe 45 minutes a day on it. 22 Q Okay, thanks. About how much time do you spend 23 on a.r.s., a.r.s. meaning alt.religion.scientology? 24 A Most of that. 25 Q Most of the time on a.r.s.? 26 A Most of the time that I'm on the net in recent 0013 01 months I've been on there. In recent -- in about the 02 last month or so, because I've been so busy with other 03 things, I probably have spent less than -- less than 04 20 minutes a day on it. 05 Q Okay. 06 A It varies. 07 Q Now, when did you first start participating on 08 a.r.s.? 09 A I don't have a precise time on that. I could 10 not be exactly certain what day it was, but it was 11 very early -- it was early January something, maybe 12 the 10th or the 11th or sometime around that time. I 13 actually looked to see if I could find out what that 14 was and I wasn't able to find it because I hadn't -- 15 at that point I was still using a different news 16 reader which 17 didn't log any postings at all, and I don't know how 18 long I read it before I posted either. There are full 19 archives of it that are maintained by several people, 20 and if you really care about this you can probably 21 find out just by posting this as a question on a.r.s. 22 Q Okay. But when you say January 10th or 11th, 23 you're referring to 1995; is that right? 24 A Yes, yes. It was the time at which the first 25 remove group hit and, of course, that splashed across 26 many other groups. I was not reading a.r.s. at that 0014 01 time and it splashed into comp.org.eff.talk. 02 Q Is that what caused you to start participating 03 in a.r.s.? 04 A Yes. 05 Q Okay. 06 A It was -- 07 Q There's no question pending. 08 A I can still make a statement. 09 Q No, not -- 10 A A lot of people did it. 11 Q Mr. Henson, just so you understand, you're here 12 to answer questions, not to just make statements. 13 When I'm through, if you want to add anything to the 14 record, you're free to. Those are the ground rules. 15 Okay? 16 Now, you're proceeding on this without a 17 lawyer; is that right? 18 A At the moment, yes. 19 Q In this case. Have you been involved previously 20 in other litigation? 21 A Yes. 22 Q As a plaintiff? 23 A Yes. 24 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 26 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): And how many such 0015 01 cases were you previously involved in? 02 A One. 03 Q And what case was that? 04 A I don't even know what it would have been named. 05 Q Just tell us generally what it was about. 06 A I sued somebody for nonpayment of a contractual 07 obligation. 08 Q Okay. This was a business-related issue? 09 A Right. 10 Q Okay. That's the only lawsuit you ever brought? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Didn't you bring a lawsuit against the FBI at 13 one point? 14 A Ahh. Yes, indeed. I'd forgotten about that 15 one. 16 Q Okay. 17 A And I was -- and come to think of it, I was a -- 18 I was a -- one of the plaintiffs on an electronic 19 communications privacy act, a case that was brought 20 against the County of Riverside. 21 Q Okay. Now, in the FBI case, did you proceed on 22 that -- in that case on a pro se or pro per basis? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And what about the case against Riverside 25 County? 26 A That was done by -- oh, I'm sorry, I can't pick 0016 01 his name up at the moment. Ashworth, Chris Ashworth. 02 Q He was your attorney? 03 A Yes. 04 Q And the FBI, case you drafted the papers? 05 A Yes, I did. It was -- the two cases were highly 06 related in that the FBI case, I wound up essentially 07 forcing the FBI to do enough investigation that it 08 supported the ECPA case. It was highly successful in 09 my view. 10 Q Okay. The FBI case was dismissed, was it not? 11 A Oh, yes. But the responses were extremely 12 useful. 13 Q Okay. Now, in your case, your contract case, 14 did you proceed -- did you have a lawyer in that case? 15 A Yes. I don't honestly remember what the guy's 16 name was. It's been at least 15 years ago. 17 TIME: 9:36 18 Q Okay. When you first began to participate in 19 a.r.s., had you previously had any knowledge about the 20 Church of Scientology? 21 A Only the kind of general knowledge that you 22 would get from such things as reading -- skimming 23 actually, the Time magazine article. 24 Q You had never been a member of the Church of 25 Scientology; is that correct? 26 A No. In fact, I had never even met anybody 0017 01 except one guy who came to the door that I knew was a 02 Scientologist. 03 Q So you'd never participated in any Scientology 04 services or courses or anything like that? 05 A None at all. 06 Q Okay. And you never have to this date; is that 07 right? 08 A No. 09 Q Okay. Prior to your first involvement in 10 a.r.s., had you ever read any books by L. Ron Hubbard? 11 A Oh, yes. 12 Q Okay. Which books had you read? 13 A I -- I really can't tell you which ones they 14 were, but I think I still even have one of his science 15 fiction novels from the late 40's or early '50's. 16 Q Okay. What you had read, was that exclusively 17 in the realm of his science fiction works or was it 18 also in some of his Scientology work? 19 A No, I had never read any of his Scientology 20 stuff. 21 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 22 Kobrin.) 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm just going to show 24 this to you. Ask the reporter to mark it as 25 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1. 26 Just take a look at that. I'm just going 0018 01 to ask you to identify it if you can. 02 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 1 was 03 marked for identification by the 04 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 05 THE WITNESS: Yes. 06 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let's just wait until the 07 reporter's ready. 08 Let me know when you're through looking at 09 it. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Looked at it. 11 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Do you recognize 12 that document? 13 A It looks like something that I produced. 14 Q Okay. Is this a copy of the Complaint you filed 15 against the FBI about which we were just speaking? 16 A That's what it seems to be. 17 Q Okay. And correct me if I'm wrong, I believe 18 you said you basically were the person responsible for 19 drafting this Complaint; is that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And who was Thomas K. Donaldson? 22 A Thomas K. Donaldson is a mathematician who at 23 that point was working for -- oh, I'm sorry, I can't 24 remember the company. One of the parallel 25 processing -- 26 Q Okay. He was one of the co-plaintiffs in the 0019 01 case? 02 A Yes. 03 Q And same with Roger Gregory; is that right? 04 A Roger Gregory at that time was chief scientist 05 for a company that is involved with hypertext. 06 Q And they participated with you in this lawsuit? 07 A Yes. 08 Q Were they also involved in the lawsuit against 09 Riverside County? 10 A I believe they were. 11 Q Okay. All right. 12 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 13 Kobrin.) 14 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Now, I believe 15 you said you don't recall exactly when you first 16 posted to a.r.s.; is that right? 17 A That's true. It probably was fairly early in -- 18 well, say mid-January or late January. That would be 19 my guess on it, but I certainly couldn't swear to it. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Could you mark that 21 as Number 2. 22 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2 was 23 marked for identification by the 24 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 25 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): And this -- take 26 a look at that, sir, and after you've taken a look at 0020 01 it, I'll just have one or two questions for you. 02 A Oh, yes. What date is this? February 22nd. 03 Q This is a document, a copy of a posting to 04 alt.religion.scientology and several other news 05 groups. I'll refer to alt.religion.scientology as 06 a.r.s. at various times and you'll know what that 07 means, correct? Yes? 08 A Sure. 09 Q Okay. It says from H.K. Henson, "Subject: Re: 10 Writ of Seizure against Erlich," that's E-R-L-I-C-H. 11 The date stated is 21 Feb 1995. Do you recognize this 12 posting, sir? 13 A It looks like something that I probably put out, 14 but I certainly couldn't tell you for sure. 15 Q It does have your name on it, correct? 16 A Yes, it does have my name on it, but that's no 17 problem. I can put anybody's name on something. 18 Q There's nothing on the face of this document 19 that suggests that it's anything other than something 20 that -- copy of something you posted, is it? 21 A Well, you handed it to me. 22 Q That's not my question, sir. 23 A I can't tell. I posted thousands -- about 1,200 24 of these things. I can't tell if this is -- whether 25 this is something I posted or not. I do remember -- I 26 mean, this -- the kind of stuff which is on here, what 0021 01 this is is a list of stuff that was found in the 02 paperwork that was filed in the Erlich case, and I 03 will definitely admit to having gone down to the 04 courthouse, copied a bunch of that paperwork and typed 05 some of it in. Whether this is the one that I did or 06 not is anybody's guess. 07 Q Well, it does have your name on it and it was 08 posted to a.r.s.; is that right? 09 A That's what it says on the face of it, but 10 whether it means that or not, there's no way I could 11 tell. 12 Q You have no memory whatsoever of whether or not 13 you posted this; is that your -- is that your 14 statement? 15 A I don't know whether this is the actual thing 16 that I posted or not. 17 Q When I first showed this to you you said, "Oh, 18 yes," did you not? 19 A Oh, I was referring to the date on it as to 20 that, and it's consistent with the dates that would 21 have been involved. 22 Q When you said, "Oh, yes," did that suggest some 23 recognition of you that you'd seen this document 24 before, sir? 25 A This particular one? 26 Q Yes. 0022 01 A I don't know. 02 Q Why did you say, "Oh, yes"? 03 A Because I was referring to the date on it. 04 Q What was it about the date that was -- 05 A Because we'd just been talking about when it was 06 that I first posted to a.r.s. 07 Q Okay. So you think this is the first time that 08 you posted to a.r.s.? 09 A This is consistent with about the time frame 10 that I posted to a.r.s. Whether this is what I posted 11 to a.r.s. is anybody's guess. However, the contents 12 of it is quite obvious. It's -- it looks like -- it 13 looks like stuff -- it's consistent with stuff that I 14 typed in that I got out of the Erlich case. I was 15 acting essentially as a reporter for the net on this. 16 Q Okay. It says here, "PS, I saw the tail end of 17 the hearing today." Did you see the tail end of a 18 hearing in Erlich on or about February 21st, 1995? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you wrote, "I sort of got the impression the 21 judge realized he might be in over his head." Did you 22 get that impression? 23 A Well, if this is really a posting of mine, I 24 apparently thought that at this time. 25 Q You remember thinking that, sir? 26 A No, I said if this is a posting of mine, if this 0023 01 really is a posting of mine, I apparently thought that 02 at this time. 03 Q Okay. Did you obtain a list of the published 04 literary works which were at issue in the Erlich case 05 from the court? 06 A I remember having done that. 07 Q Okay. 08 A It's a public document. 09 Q Yes, I understand that. Do you remember posting 10 that to the internet? 11 A Yes, I do remember posting it to the internet. 12 Q Thank you. 13 A And this may well be that post, but I couldn't 14 swear to it. 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Where's my list here? 16 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 17 Kobrin.) 18 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. Now, when 19 you went to the court to view the proceedings in the 20 Erlich case, had you had any communications with 21 Mr. Erlich about his case up to that time? 22 A I don't know. I simply don't remember. 23 Q Okay. Have you ever had any communications with 24 Mr. Erlich about his case? 25 A Certainly. I met him there at that -- at that 26 hearing. 0024 01 Q Yes. Did you have any conversations with him at 02 that time? 03 A Quite a bit, yes. 04 Q Okay. And what did you speak -- what did you 05 talk to him about? 06 A I -- you're asking something which is what, 07 February some odd of -- 08 Q I'm just asking you for your best memory. 09 A Best memory, I just don't remember what we 10 talked about. It was mostly a matter of supportive. 11 I don't believe there was any sub -- substantive 12 detail to it. 13 Q Did you discuss with him at that time the idea 14 of either he or you posting additional Scientology 15 materials to the internet? 16 A No, never have discussed that with Mr. Erlich. 17 Q Never discussed that. 18 A (Witness shakes head from side to side.) 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Number 21. Mark 20 that. 21 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 3 was 22 marked for identification by the 23 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Take a look at that. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, again, I can't be sure 26 that this is something which I posted. 0025 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: Go on. 02 THE WITNESS: But I think it's rather 03 funny. It's certainly characteristic of the kind of 04 thing I post. 05 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): In what way is it 06 characteristic? 07 A It has a sense of humor in it. 08 Q All right. And -- 09 A If this was what I posted, this would have 10 been -- what's the date on this? February 24. This 11 was before I figured out what Koos was. 12 Q Okay. Now, this document, for the record, is a 13 posting to a.r.s., it states from 14 "hkhenson@cup.portal.com." Is that the access 15 provider you use, by the way? 16 A One of them. 17 Q Okay. It's -- subject is called "The Right to 18 be Evil" and the date is 23 Feb 1995. Then says, 19 "Organization: The Portal System." What does -- what 20 does that signify, sir, on a header like that? 21 A It's just the name of an internet service 22 provider. 23 Q Okay. Is that the internet service provider you 24 would have used or -- 25 A It's one of the ones I use. 26 Q You made a lot of postings of the same nature as 0026 01 this, didn't you? 02 A Yes. After I -- 03 Q Just yes or no is fine. 04 A Okay. 05 Q And by that, I mean to say that you made a 06 number of postings which are critical or taunting of 07 the church; is that right? 08 A Oh, sure. 09 Q Yeah. How many do you think you made like that? 10 Ballpark. 50, a hundred, 300? 11 A After -- after I changed to -- you have to 12 understand, when I posted this, I was still using a 13 news reader which did not permit a killfile. Are you 14 familiar with some of these concepts? 15 Q No. 16 A Should I explain it? 17 Q Why don't you answer the question first. 18 A What was the question? 19 Q You made -- how about ballpark, how many 20 postings of this nature did you make? 50, a hundred, 21 200? What would be your best estimate? 22 A 1,228. 23 Q That's your best estimate as how many of them 24 you made? 25 A Yeah. 26 Q You said awhile ago that you had an estimate as 0027 01 to the total number of postings made to a.r.s. What 02 was that? 03 A 1,228. 04 Q Okay. All of them weren't of this nature 05 though, were they? 06 A I -- you asked me how many I posted. That 07 actually is a -- that actually -- that number comes 08 from a counter which I reset awhile back, but when I 09 reset it after -- that started after this action 10 started. I reset that counter 'cause I wondered how 11 many I had made, and that is not a completely accurate 12 number because it -- that counts all the postings I 13 made other places, but -- which is probably about 80 14 percent -- 20 percent of that could have been other 15 places, and it also doesn't count the fact that I -- 16 it was about a month after this before I switched 17 to -- or not a month, but it was a couple of weeks 18 after that, after this posting, that I switched to a 19 news reader with a killfile on it. 20 Q Okay. Now, for all of these postings with the 21 exceptions of the ones where you actually posted 22 verbatim materials from RTC, no one sued you for 23 those, did they? 24 A I'm sorry, would you repeat the question? 25 Q You've testified that you made over 1,200 26 postings to a.r.s. 0028 01 A Yes. Well, I made over 1,200 postings using 02 tin, which counts them, and most of those were to 03 a.r.s., right. 04 Q And most of those were critical or derogatory of 05 the Church of Scientology or Religious Technology 06 Center; is that right? 07 A I suppose so, by their definition. 08 Q Right. You were never sued for making 09 derogatory comments about the Church of Scientology, 10 were you? 11 A I was threatened once. 12 Q You were threatened once. By whom? 13 A Helena. 14 Q And how did Helena threaten you? 15 A She wrote me a letter. 16 Q Didn't she write you a letter about your posting 17 of NOTs materials? 18 A I don't think it was NOTs. In fact, exactly, it 19 was OT VII 48. 20 Q Okay. I stand corrected. OT VII. But she 21 never sent you a letter threatening you with a lawsuit 22 for making fun of the Church of Scientology or making 23 derogatory comments about it, did she, sir? 24 A My estimation is that -- is that posting those 25 six lines was in fair use, and certainly that was -- 26 Q That's not my question, sir. Did she ever write 0029 01 you a letter threatening you with a lawsuit for 02 posting -- postings such as this which were derogatory 03 or critical of the Church of Scientology, but which 04 did not contain OT-level materials? Yes or no. 05 A I certainly got threats by Milne, Vera Wallace 06 and a couple of other people who are church members. 07 Q Did Helena Kobrin ever send you such a letter, 08 sir? 09 A No. 10 Q Did the Religious Technology Center ever send 11 you such a letter? 12 A Did Scientology ever send me such a letter? 13 Q My question was did Religious Technology Center 14 ever send you such a letter. 15 A I'm sorry, I can't manage to distinguish between 16 Religious Technology Center and the rest -- 17 Q Did you ever receive such a letter from anybody? 18 A Oh, yes. Yeah. Several things. Postings. 19 Postings in particular. I think some of them were 20 private -- were e-mail directed to me as well. 21 Q Do you have copies of those? 22 A No, but they will be in the archives of a.r.s. 23 Q Now, who sent you these letters? 24 A Vera Wallace. 25 Q And what did it say? 26 A I don't remember except it was quite derogatory 0030 01 to me. 02 Q I didn't ask you whether it was derogatory of 03 you. 04 A Was it threats for legal action or physical 05 damage or things like that? 06 Q Yeah. 07 A Yeah. If I remember correctly. 08 Q Well, what did it say? 09 A I don't remember. God sakes, do you remember 10 crap that you read a year ago? 11 Q Well, if somebody threatened me with a lawsuit, 12 I might remember it, sir. If you don't remember being 13 threatened with a lawsuit, say so. If you do, then 14 tell me who threatened you and what they said. 15 A I'd have to dig it up. I really would. I can 16 get some people to do that. 17 Q I don't -- I'm not asking you to get some people 18 to do that, I'm asking you what your memory is. 19 A My memory is that I was -- is that I was 20 threatened more than once by representatives of the 21 Church of Scientology, people who were recognized 22 members of the Church of Scientology on the net. 23 Andrew Milne was probably one of the people who was 24 involved. Vera Wallace certainly did that. Chris 25 Miller went after me once. 26 Q What did -- what did they say? 0031 01 A I don't remember. 02 Q What do you mean by you were threatened? 03 What -- you were threatened with what? 04 A I'd have to look it up. I certainly felt 05 threatened. 06 Q But speaking here today, you can't tell me what 07 the threat was; is that right? 08 A Good lord, there's been threats by 09 Scientologists on the net so many times you can't 10 count them. Like the one -- Ron ArtistR or whatever 11 his name was that was threatening to kill people. 12 That one I know I can find. That wasn't to me, but it 13 was to somebody else. I think it was to Tarla. 14 Q I'm talking about any threats to you. Are you 15 able to tell me today what they were and when they 16 were made. 17 A No, I cannot tell you today what those threats 18 were. However, I will make a point of finding out 19 what they were and send them to you. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Number 23. 21 THE WITNESS: Since there's a dead spot 22 here, why don't I introduce -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, you're not free to 24 introduce anything right now. 25 THE WITNESS: She's got a tag -- a bunch 26 of tags there. Can't use them up? 0032 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: No. When I am through, if 02 you want to introduce something, you can introduce 03 something, but right now you are not permitted to do 04 that. 05 Mark that. 06 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 4 was 07 marked for identification by the 08 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 09 TIME: 10:00 10 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a -- 11 A Oh. 12 Q -- posting, states from H.K. Henson to a.r.s. 13 and to other news groups, "Subject: Re: No more 14 "Secret Scriptures."" Mr. Henson, you've indicated 15 some recognition of this document. 16 A I certainly can't swear to it and I can't 17 identify it to you -- for you as being my material. 18 Q You -- 19 A But it looks like a good posting. 20 Q You said, "Oh" when you saw it. 21 A I recognize Standup. He was one -- he was one 22 of the Church of Scientology's people. He's probably 23 one of the people that was involved in either 24 insulting me or -- 25 Q Well, you insulted a lot of people in the 26 church, didn't you? All the time. 0033 01 A Oh, absolutely. 02 Q And you did so in this posting, too, right? 03 A Well, assuming that this is my posting, which 04 I'm not -- certainly am not going to admit that, but 05 assuming it's my posting, that's a pretty good 06 posting. 07 Q But you did make numerous postings of the same 08 tenor as this; is that correct? 09 A I would say probably you would consider that. 10 Q And your view, of course, is that you have the 11 First Amendment right to make such postings, insulting 12 or making derogatory comments about the Church of 13 Scientology or anybody else; isn't that right? 14 A Oh, by internet standards, you can't -- you 15 can't believe how mild this is. 16 Q Now you can answer my question. 17 A What? Can you repeat the question? 18 Q Your view is that under the First Amendment you 19 have the right to make such comments about the Church 20 of Scientology or people involved with it; is that 21 right? 22 A I have the right to make comments like this 23 about anybody. 24 Q Right. And people have the right to make 25 insulting comments about you back, right? 26 A It depends on how far they go in the threats. 0034 01 Q How about how far you go, sir? Does that depend 02 on that, too? 03 A I don't believe I've ever stepped over the line. 04 It's a fairly well understood usenet culture phenomena 05 as to how far you can go without getting in trouble. 06 Q Now, did you make this posting, sir? 07 A This one? 08 Q Yeah. 09 A I can't swear to it. 10 Q Does it seem familiar to you? 11 A Not particularly. 12 Q Okay. 13 A I do, however, recognize Standup. 14 Q There's no question pending about Standup, sir. 15 A What a character. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let's see number 42. 17 Mark that. 18 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 5 was 19 marked for identification by the 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 21 (Discussion held off the record.) 22 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Plaintiff's 23 Number 5 is a copy of a posting to a.r.s. from H.K. 24 Henson dated March 14th, 1995. Subject, it says, "Re: 25 Just the facts, ma'am." 26 A Just a point of information. Re: is short for 0035 01 reference or referring to. 02 Q Yes, I understand. Thank you though. 03 And it begins with a statement that David 04 Talbot had written to a.r.s. quoting something that 05 Grady Ward had stated to a.r.s. in fairly graphic 06 terms, and follows with a comment from Mr. Henson 07 which states, "David, I don't expect to believe this" 08 -- 09 A I -- 10 Q -- "but Grady Ward is a respected person, not 11 just here, but over a considerable stretch of the 12 net." Did you make this posting, sir? 13 A I could not at all swear to having made this 14 posting. However, the material that is in the posting 15 is certainly consistent with what I -- with what I 16 would have believed at March 15th. 17 Q Right. And everything on the header indicates 18 that this was a posting of yours, does it not? 19 A I can't tell. Honest to goodness, when you're 20 dealing with something like this which is so easy to 21 change, there is no way. I can't swear to any of this 22 being actually mine. 23 Q Is there anything on the face of this document 24 that suggests that this is anything other than what it 25 purports to be, sir? 26 A I can't tell you that. 0036 01 Q In other words, you can't point to anything on 02 here -- 03 A I can't point to anything on here which 04 authenticates this or -- or -- I just can't make an 05 opinion on it. I'm sorry, you know, there is just no 06 way. 07 Q Do you remember thinking that Grady Ward is a 08 respected person over a considerable stretch of the 09 net? 10 A Oh, yeah. 11 Q Did you believe "He happens to be a little more 12 outspoken than the rest of us"? 13 A Yes, in an under -- understated sort of a way. 14 Q Do you remember thinking that "you," meaning 15 Mr. Talbot, "and the other" Scientology "types, with a 16 few exceptions, have no credibility here at all"? 17 A That doesn't look right. Well, yeah, at that 18 time -- yeah, at that time I'm -- if this is indeed is 19 something that I wrote, which I can't swear to, but if 20 it is something I wrote, I guess at that time there 21 was a couple of Scientologists on the net who actually 22 had some degree of respect. In particular, 23 Ken Long and -- oh, boy. I wish I could -- Elizabeth 24 McCoy. They long ago left, and there certainly -- a 25 month or two later they -- there would have been no 26 exceptions. 0037 01 Q And you remember thinking that you must play by 02 the rules if you come on to the net; is that right? 03 A That's -- 04 Q Our rules. 05 A That's a -- that's obvious. 06 Q Right. Now, by the way, don't the rules of most 07 access providers include rules against copyright 08 infringement? 09 A I wouldn't know. 10 Q You've Never read those rules? 11 A I probably have read those rules, but I 12 certainly don't remember anything from it. 13 Q Those rules you don't remember. What rules do 14 you remember? 15 A I'm sorry, I -- you know, asking me to remember 16 something which I -- which I read from an access 17 provider at least three or four years ago is well 18 beyond anything that you could expect from me. 19 Q Right. But you -- you expected others to 20 abide -- play by the rules, but you don't remember 21 this particular rule; is that right? 22 A The rule -- now, understand that there's a 23 difference between legalized rules and customs. I 24 mean, for example, there's no law against pissing in 25 the potted plant out in the lobby, but it's definitely 26 against custom. 0038 01 Q Right. You talk here about rules though. There 02 are rules that almost every access provider has about 03 copyright infringement; isn't that right? 04 A I frankly don't know. I would bet that there's 05 lots of -- of internet providers who don't have any 06 rules whatsoever on that. 07 Q Right. Do you think the Portal system does? 08 A I don't know. 09 Q Do you think Netcom does? 10 A I wouldn't have the slightest notion. 11 Q It wasn't something that you were ever 12 interested in finding out. 13 A I haven't looked. I know what is permitted by 14 custom. 15 Q Is copyright infringement permitted by customs? 16 A If there's a sufficient motivation to do it, 17 yes. 18 Q I see. And whose custom is that? 19 A Netiquette. 20 Q So according to the custom of netiquette, if 21 you're sufficiently motivated -- 22 A No, if there is sufficiently good reason -- 23 Q You can violate somebody's copyrights? 24 A Happens every day. 25 Q And is the same thing true with misappropriating 26 their trade secrets? If you have a sufficient 0039 01 motivation, then it's okay to do that. 02 A Not motivation. If there is sufficient -- like 03 public interest and so forth. 04 Q And who determines this? 05 A You take the risk yourself. 06 Q Okay. And if you're wrong, you get sued, right? 07 A It looks that way. 08 Q If the Court thinks you're wrong, you're found 09 liable; isn't that right? 10 A That may well be. 11 Q But you think that under the rules of netiquette 12 it's up to each individual to make that determination 13 for themselves in the first instance; is that right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that's what you've done, isn't it? 16 A Repeat that. 17 Q And that's what you've done; isn't it? 18 A I don't exactly understand why you're asking -- 19 or even what the question is exactly here. 20 Q You made the determination that there's 21 sufficient reason to infringe on RTC's copyrights by 22 posting its materials on the net, haven't you? 23 A No. 24 Q You haven't made that determination. 25 A No. I don't consider that infringement on their 26 copyrights at all. [correct to . . . consider that I have infringed on . . .] 0040 01 Q You consider that there is sufficient reason to 02 misappropriate their trade secrets and put them on the 03 net, haven't you? 04 A No. Anything that I may have done, I think I 05 have a perfectly decent defense on the thing of it 06 being a fair use. [^^^^^^^^^^^^^ delete] 07 Q I see. And -- all right. Did you -- 08 A I mean, for example, the six lines. 09 Q We'll get to the six lines. But when you posted 10 the six lines, did you consult with anyone as to 11 whether or not it was proper to put that on the net? 12 A Six lines? 13 Q Yes, that's my question. Yes or no. 14 A No. 15 Q And when you posted the NOTs issue, did you 16 consult with anyone as to whether or not it was 17 appropriate or permissible to post that on the net? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who'd you consult with? 20 A Judge Whyte. I tried to. 21 Q Judge Whyte doesn't think you've consulted with 22 him, sir. I was in court. Other than Judge Whyte, 23 did you consult with anyone else? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q You don't remember? It wasn't that long ago. 26 A I don't -- I don't remember whether I consulted 0041 01 with anybody else or not on that one. 02 Q Did you consult with a lawyer? 03 A No. 04 Q Did you consult with Mr. Ward? 05 A No. 06 Q Did you consult with Mr. Erlich? 07 A No. 08 Q This was a few weeks ago, but you don't remember 09 now whether you consulted with anybody else? 10 A I don't remember whether I -- whether I -- I 11 certainly didn't do a formal consult with -- like 12 paying a lawyer on it and going in and talking to 13 them. 14 Q Uh-huh. Basically you came to your own 15 determination that this was a permissible -- 16 permissible use of the NOTs materials; is that right? 17 A NOTs 34 is criminal on the face of it. Not only 18 that, it's a violation of Judge Giselle's order. [Gesell's] 19 Q My question is you decided -- you came to this 20 conclusion on your own; is that right? Yes or no. 21 A I said yeah. It doesn't take a lot of 22 conclusion to come to the conclusion of what's in that 23 thing. 24 Q I'd ask that you restrict yourself to the 25 questions I'm asking you. 26 You actually posted that twice, didn't 0042 01 you? NOTs 34? 02 A Actually, I thought I only posted it once. It 03 disappeared and I couldn't figure out -- I figured 04 "Well, I must have failed to post it correctly." 05 Q So then you reposted it? 06 A I repost it, yeah. 07 Q Then it shows up twice, right? 08 A No, it only showed up once. Church of 09 Scientology cancelled it once, I found out later. 10 That, by the way, is a violation of federal law. 11 Q Well, if they cancelled it, they must have known 12 that it was there, didn't they? So it must have shown 13 up, isn't that right? 14 A Say that again? 15 Q If they cancelled it the first time, how did 16 they know it was there? 17 A Well, presumably they're able to read. 18 Q Then that means it showed up, doesn't it? 19 A I don't know. I thought it was lost at the 20 time. 21 Q But if your view is that they cancelled it, then 22 it must be your view that it showed up; isn't it? 23 A There was a cancel message which accounted for 24 the fact that it disappeared. Are they -- 25 Q Sir, I -- 26 A Are they permitted to have done that? 0043 01 Q Sir, if it disappeared, it would have had to 02 appear; is that right? As a matter of basic logic, 03 isn't that right? 04 A Well, how would I know? 05 Q Okay. 06 A I went looking for it the next day and it wasn't 07 there. 08 Q So you put it back. You reposted -- 09 A I put it back. That was long before I heard 10 from them. Days before I heard from them. Or at 11 least a couple of days. 12 TIME: 10:15 13 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 14 Kobrin.) 15 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): And what basis do 16 you have for asserting that the Church of Scientology 17 cancelled it? 18 A That's a good point. I don't. I think I need 19 to investigate that point as part of this lawsuit. 20 Q You have no basis for making that allegation as 21 we sit here today; is that right? 22 A Well, I think that -- you're right, I don't have 23 an allegation. I don't have any basis for that 24 allegation. It's an assumption based on longstanding 25 pattern of behavior, but you're right. I need to 26 investigate that. Thank you for suggesting that. 0044 01 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 02 Kobrin.) 03 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Do you have any 04 information that the Church of Scientology ever 05 cancelled any posting? Any facts to support that kind 06 of allegation? 07 A Facts that could be presented in a court of law 08 that I have personal knowledge of? No. 09 Q Okay. That's the question. 10 A But I'll go to the trouble to get it. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see number 74. 12 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): By the way, when 13 you did post NOTs 34, you knew that it was 14 copyrighted, right? 15 A By somebody, yes. Stuff is born copyrighted. 16 Q You knew that RTC claimed the copyright to 17 NOTs 34, didn't you? Yes or no. 18 A Try that again. 19 Q You knew that the Church of Scientology through 20 RTC claimed the copyright, asserted a copyright, in 21 NOTs 34. Yes or no. 22 A It was on the list of material that was in the 23 TRO that was issued against Grady Ward. That's the 24 best I can do. I don't know whether they assert -- 25 what they assert on it or how well it would hold up in 26 court. 0045 01 Q But you knew that it was asserted, right? In 02 fact, you also knew that it was part of the Erlich 03 case, didn't you? 04 A No. 05 Q You didn't? 06 A Nope. 07 Q Didn't you go and obtain a whole list of 08 materials that were at issue in the Erlich case and 09 didn't you post those to the internet? 10 A You think that I could remember that list of 11 numbers? No way. 12 Q I see. You didn't bother to check that what you 13 were posting was part of the injunction in the Erlich 14 case? 15 A No. 16 Q You didn't -- 17 A I knew it was part of the injunction in the -- 18 in the Ward case because that's how I found it. In 19 fact, would you like a description of how I found it? 20 Q No, I'll get to that. But you didn't bother to 21 check whether it was part of the injunction in the 22 Erlich case; is that your testimony? 23 A That's my testimony. Was it? 24 Q Yes. 25 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 26 Kobrin.) 0046 01 TIME: 10:20. 02 MR. LIEBERMAN: Number 78. 03 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Have you ever 04 used anonymous remailers? 05 A No. 06 Q You've never posted anything through an 07 anonymous remailer. 08 A No. 09 Q Okay. Do you know people who have? 10 A Probably. 11 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ward has? 12 A Wouldn't have the slightest idea. 13 Q Are you aware that people have used anonymous 14 remailers to post Scientology-copyrighted materials to 15 the internet? 16 A That's obvious. 17 Q Okay. And do you know why they would use an 18 anonymous remailer? 19 A Yeah, they want to avoid the kind of trouble 20 that I'm in. 21 Q Right. But you've never decided to use that 22 route to avoid that kind of trouble? 23 A If I did, I wouldn't be here today. 24 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 25 Kobrin.) 26 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Did you ever give 0047 01 any advice to people as to how to use anonymous 02 remailers to avoid detection by the Church of 03 Scientology? 04 A No. Not that I can remember. I may have done 05 so, but -- I may have mentioned that you should do it. 06 It's possible I even pointed people to where -- to 07 where you can find that information, but I can't 08 recall having done so. 09 Q Did you ever post any -- make any postings to 10 the internet describing to people how to do that or 11 giving them advice how to do it? 12 A I'm not an expert in that particular field. I 13 know only the rawest outlines of how you go about 14 doing that. I could probably describe it fairly well, 15 but I would be much more likely just to point people 16 to some of the web sites which have a great deal -- 17 web sites or ftp sites that have the full details on 18 it. 19 Q Did anyone ever ask you for such advice or 20 information? 21 A I can't recall that. 22 Q Did anyone ever tell you that they were doing 23 that with respect to Church of Scientology materials? 24 A No. 25 Q Did you ever tell any people that those using 26 anonymous remailers should never use the same one 0048 01 twice as the final link? 02 A I might have. 03 Q Why would -- why would that be useful 04 information to know? 05 A Well, the obvious is that the final remailer in 06 the thing where the stuff is finally encrypted up to [decrypted] 07 where you can actually see it and goes out at that 08 point, there's always a chance that the final 09 remailer -- and it could be compromised or subjected 10 to legal coercion to trap the stuff going through it. 11 Q So the idea would be if the final remailer only 12 knew the name of an intermediate remailer it would 13 give you another level of protection; is that the 14 idea? 15 A Oh, the general rule is that you never send 16 stuff through less than three or four remailers. 17 Q And that's precisely for the purpose of -- 18 A If you're going to -- 19 Q -- maintaining the secrecy? 20 A Right. If you're going to do that kind of 21 thing, you want to do a good job of it. 22 Q Is there a list of remailers that one can 23 obtain? 24 A Yes. I don't remember where you obtain it at 25 the moment. 26 Q Is there something called Cypherpunks? 0049 01 A Yes. 02 Q Is that where you obtain it? 03 A Let's see if I have it here. (Indicating). 04 Q What is Cypherpunk? 05 A Cypherpunk is a -- well, it's a really hard 06 thing to describe. It's obviously a play on 07 cyberpunks, and cypher, of course, which is to encrypt 08 things, and it's a shame you guys had to identify 09 everybody here today because I would have brought 10 somebody from that realm of the world. I know a 11 number of the people who are -- I can't say members -- 12 subscribers to the Cypherpunks list is about as close 13 as I can come. 14 Q I see. So there's something called a 15 Cypherpunks list? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Who maintains that? 18 A Major Domo. [majordomo] 19 Q Major Domo is an individual? 20 A No, no. Major Domo is a bot. 21 Q A what? 22 A A bot. 23 Q What's a bot? 24 A A robot like. It's short for robot. 25 Q Uh-huh. And this robot is obviously maintained 26 by somebody, right? 0050 01 A Not very much. In fact, it's hardly ever 02 touched. 03 Q Where does it sit? 04 A I don't know at this point. It was a year ago, 05 which was about the last time I was reading the 06 Cypherpunks list, it was on Hoptoad. 07 Q How would one go about getting the Cypherpunks 08 list? 09 A Subscribe Cypherpunks. 10 Q How do you do that? 11 A You send subscribe.cypherpunks to 12 cypherpunks.com or cypherpunks@hoptoad.com. 13 Q Who are the individuals involved in Cypherpunks? 14 A Gee, I -- there's a list on -- of them that were 15 the prominent people that -- it's more exclusive than 16 any list I could come -- more extensive than any list 17 I could come up that was in Wired magazine. 18 Q Well, you must know some of the people involved, 19 sir, because you were going to bring some of them here 20 today, you just said so. 21 A One of them. 22 Q Who was that? 23 A Well, I never got any of them to agree. 24 Q Who was the person you were going to bring? 25 A I put a message on the Cypherpunks list saying 26 that -- if anybody'd want to come. 0051 01 Q You spoke to some people about it, right? 02 A No. Strictly e-mail. 03 Q Okay. Who did you communicate with through 04 e-mail? 05 A 700 people. I can't list them. 06 Q You don't know the identity -- 07 A Actualy, I don't -- I got one back from -- oh, 08 man. Doughboy. I don't know when -- I had -- there 09 were several of them that were -- that -- you know, 10 that had names like that that I -- that were 11 interested, but when I posted back to the -- you know, 12 it was -- they had to be identified. Nobody was 13 interested. 14 Q But you knew their identity? 15 A Me? 16 Q Yes, you. You knew the identity of the people 17 you wanted to bring with you here today. 18 A (Witness shakes head from side to side.) 19 Q You're under oath, sir. 20 A I -- there's 700 people. 21 Q You wanted to bring not 700 people to this 22 deposition, but one or two. Who were they? 23 A Do I have to answer that question? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Let's take that up with Judge Invante this [Infante] 26 afternoon. 0052 01 Q Okay. So you're refusing to answer that 02 question; is that right? 03 A I don't believe that it's -- that I'm required 04 to answer the question about hypothetical people that 05 I might have brought to this. 06 Q Is there anybody else connected with Cypherpunks 07 whom you can identify? 08 A Sure. Phil Zimmerman. 09 Q Yes? Who else? 10 A Eric Hughes. Two or three people in the East 11 Coast that post out of Panix. That's P-A-N-I-X. 12 Q What are their names? 13 A Oh, jeez. I'm not sure I know any of those guys 14 by name. There's a guy by the name of Hal, but I 15 cannot bring up his name, his last name. 16 Q Anyone else involved with Cypherpunks? 17 A It's been a year since I've been on Cypherpunks 18 steadily. It's too big a list. It was running more 19 than 50 megabytes a month and I can't handle that. 20 Q But the people who you are refusing to 21 identify are identified or connected with Cypherpunks? 22 A They're on the list of somewhere between 700 and 23 a thousand people. 24 Q You understand the reason I am asking you for 25 the identity is not because they would or would not 26 come to this deposition, but because they are 0053 01 connected with Cypherpunks. That's the reason for the 02 question. 03 A Well, if you want a list of Cypherpunk people 04 just -- 05 Q Do you still refuse to -- 06 A If you want a list of Cypherpunks, just ask for 07 it. 08 Q I'm asking, do you still refuse to identify the 09 names of those people, given what I just stated to 10 you? 11 A I had some people in mind that I would have 12 asked, but on the basis of having to be identified I 13 know none of them would be interested in coming. 14 Q Okay. And you're refusing to state who they 15 are? 16 A Well, you can get the whole list if you want. 17 Q That's not my question. 18 A Yeah, I refuse to state it. I mean, this is 19 highly hypothetical, but, I mean, the Cypherpunks 20 people would obviously be interested in this kind of 21 things. It's sort of like an arms manufacturer being 22 interested in reports from the battle front. 23 Q Okay. 24 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 25 Kobrin.) 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see number 83. 0054 01 TIME: 10:32. 02 MR. LIEBERMAN: Can you mark that as 03 whatever we're up to. 04 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 6 was 05 marked for identification by the 06 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 07 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a posting 08 to a.r.s. from H.K. Henson dated 5th of April '95 "Re: 09 Gerald Armstrong message to a.r.s." Do you know who 10 Gerald Armstrong is? 11 A Only by having read that he's been silenced by 12 the Church of Scientology. 13 Q Do you recall that he sent a message to a.r.s. 14 about a year ago? 15 A I seem to remember that he did something like 16 that. 17 Q And did you try to make it to a court hearing in 18 a case involving Gerald Armstrong? 19 A No. It got rescheduled, if I remember. 20 Q But before it was rescheduled, you intended to 21 try to make it to it; is that right? 22 A I thought about it. 23 Q Did you ever go to a hearing, a court hearing 24 involving Gerald Armstrong? 25 A No. 26 Q Okay. 0055 01 A As they say, I have a life. 02 Q Glad to hear it. Did you make this posting? 03 A I can't say. There's not enough context to 04 figure out what it was about, and I can't -- I can't 05 swear to anything that is on paper like this. 06 Q There's nothing in the content of this that 07 suggests that this is anything other than a posting by 08 you as it purports to be? 09 A There's nothing in it that says it is a posting 10 by me either. 11 Q Well, yeah, there is. It says from Keith 12 Henson. Does it not? 13 A It states that, but I can type anybody's name in 14 there. Do you want me to generate you one with your 15 name in it? It's simple to do. 16 Q Not my question, sir. You see PS, it says, "By 17 the way, CoS, attacking people like Grady who have 18 never been involved with CoS is a very, very bad 19 move." Did you think a year ago the church was 20 attacking Grady Ward? 21 A Oh, definitely. 22 Q They hadn't brought any lawsuit against him, had 23 they? 24 A You don't need to bring lawsuits against 25 somebody to attack them. I mean, doing things like 26 stealing pictures of his children from his mother is 0056 01 what I would consider to be a serious level attack. 02 Q Is that something they did in April of '95? 03 A I don't remember when they did it. 04 Q Grady was attacking the church pretty heavily on 05 a.r.s., too, wasn't he? 06 A I don't remember. 07 Q You don't? 08 A No. The reason of it is that Grady's -- I 09 really didn't find Grady's posts to be usually all 10 that interesting. I usually skipped them. 11 Q I see. You made numerous references to Grady in 12 your own postings, didn't you? 13 A Well, Grady was obviously under a serious attack 14 by the church. 15 Q What kind of communication -- did you have 16 communications with Grady? 17 A I actually never spoke to Grady before -- 18 whatever date it was that that first picket was 19 held up -- that the picket was held this year up at 20 San Francisco, and I sent maybe three or four e-mail 21 messages to him altogether. Short things, you know, 22 like "way to go" or something like that. 23 Q Did you ever discuss with him posting 24 Scientology materials to the internet? 25 A Never have. 26 Q Ever communicate with him by e-mail or by 0057 01 regular mail concerning that subject? 02 A Never by regular mail. I haven't written a 03 letter by regular mail for years hardly. Very few of 04 them. 05 Q How about by e-mail? By e-mail, did you discuss 06 with Grady Ward posting Scientology materials to the 07 internet? 08 A Absolutely not. 09 Q Did you ever discuss with Grady Ward the 10 identity of SCAMIZDAT? 11 A Nope. 12 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry? 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: SCAMIZDAT, 14 S-C-A-M-I-Z-D-A-T. 15 THE WITNESS: And if you want to do it by 16 the -- the a.r.s. standard, it should all be in 17 capitals. 18 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 19 Kobrin.) 20 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Did you ever 21 discuss either electronically or by spoken word with 22 anybody the question of the identity of SCAMIZDAT? 23 A I don't believe I have ever done that. 24 Q Are you SCAMIZDAT? 25 A No. 26 Q Do you know who SCAMIZDAT is? 0058 01 A No. However, I can do some speculation on that, 02 if you'd like. 03 Q I'm not interested in speculation. I'm 04 interested in -- 05 A Well, if you don't want information that would 06 help you figure out who SCAMIZDAT is, that's okay by 07 me. 08 Q I want to know if you have any information. I 09 want to know that. If you are merely speculating, 10 your speculation is no better than anybody else's. 11 A Well, you have the same information I have. 12 Q Okay. Do you know who SCAMIZDAT is or do you 13 think you know who it is? 14 A Haven't a clue. 15 Q Okay. And you quite definitely are not. 16 A The presumption with SCAMIZDAT is that SCAMIZDAT 17 is a person who's actually had some of the hard copied 18 materials of the Church of Scientology in 19 their possession to type them in or scan them in. 20 I've never seen a piece of hard copy of any of the OT 21 or NOTs material or any of the other stuff that they 22 keep secret. 23 Q Okay. 24 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 25 Kobrin.) 26 TIME: 10:39. 0059 01 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Do you know who 02 Patrick Volk is? 03 A Who? 04 Q Patrick J. Volk, V-O-L-K. 05 A Not a clue. At least I can't think -- does he 06 go by any other name on the net? 07 Q I don't know. 08 A To the best of my knowledge I've never heard 09 of this person. Did he send me mail -- 10 Q Could he be possibly -- if I said that he was 11 connected with some educational institution in 12 Pittsburgh, does that refresh your recollection at 13 all? 14 A It's entirely possible that I did something like 15 respond to some posting of his, if this person posts 16 on the internet, but the name is not immediately 17 familiar to me. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Let me see number 19 94. 20 THE WITNESS: If you give me a little more 21 background, maybe I can -- 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll try and do that. 23 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 24 Kobrin.) 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: If you need to take a 26 break at any point, all you need to do is say so. I 0060 01 should have said that at the beginning of the 02 deposition as part of the general instructions. 03 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 7 was 04 marked for identification by the 05 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 06 THE WITNESS: (Laughter). I'm sorry. 07 This is a great troll. 08 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. You find 09 this amusing? 10 A Yes. It's an in-joke. 11 Q Now, this is -- 12 A Please just read it into the record. 13 Q This is a posting dated April 6, 1995 to a.r.s. 14 from Keith Henson. It quotes a posting by Patrick, 15 with the T left out by mistake, I assume, Volk, 16 V-O-L-K, which states, among other things, "Screw the 17 courts" and also says that he has an ftp site for all 18 the OT materials. Mr. Henson -- 19 A I'm sorry, I just lost it. 20 Q Mr. Henson is laughing hysterically about this 21 posting for reasons that I suppose he understands. 22 And obviously -- well, let me ask you this, sir -- 23 A Why do I find this humorous? 24 Q No, that's not my question. What's an ftp site? 25 A ftp stands for file transfer protocol. 26 Q Right. And describe what that -- what an ftp 0061 01 site is. 02 A It is -- it is a place on the internet where you 03 can use almost any machine on the internet to access 04 the files that have been placed in what's called an 05 ftp directory anywhere else on the internet. For 06 example, pheta.com has a file -- has an ftp, bunch of [theta.com] 07 ftp directories in there. And you can use a program 08 called ftp or ncftp or some of the browsers also 09 support this through URL's and it provides you a way 10 to link up with that machine, remote machine, and by 11 using commands -- there's a whole lot of commands you 12 can use, but there's only a few I use called get and 13 put that allows us to transfer files from the 14 directory that you're in on the remote machine into 15 your own directory. 16 Q Okay. So when he said, "I have an ftp site for 17 all the OT materials," he is saying he has all the OT 18 materials available on an ftp site which people can 19 access; is that right? 20 A That's right. 21 Q Okay. Were you aware of Patrick Volk's ftp 22 site; does this refresh your recollection? 23 A Well, you see right after the colon, it says, 24 "ftp:127.0.0.1"? 25 Q Yes. 26 A That's a loopback address. 0062 01 Q That's a what? 02 A Loopback. 03 Q What does that mean? 04 A You don't actually go out of your own machine at 05 all, it loops right back into your own machine. This 06 is what's known as a troll in the internet. 07 Q I see. And what's a troll, sir? 08 A Oh, it comes from the fishing where you troll a 09 bait along in the water and a fish will jump and bite 10 the thing, and the idea of it is that the internet is 11 a very humorous place and it's especially good to 12 troll people who don't have any sense of humor at all, 13 and this is a troll because an ftp site of 127.0.0.1 14 doesn't go anywhere. It loops right back around into 15 your own machine. 16 Q So the idea here was to make the church think 17 that this person had an ftp site and to take action 18 against him and, in fact, he didn't have it; is that 19 your point? 20 A Oh, it's really humorous, and I picked up on it 21 and instantly -- instantly added something to extend 22 the troll. Extending the trolls like this is an art 23 form of the highest order. 24 Q I see. So this is part of your art form where 25 you say, "don't you expect the 'ho to blow a gasket?" 26 A Yes. 0063 01 Q So you do remember this posting apparently? 02 A Well, I don't remember whether I did this one or 03 not, but -- 04 Q You just said you did, sir. 05 A I don't remember for certain that I did this 06 one, and certainly I could not swear to any of the 07 material on here being letter perfect on it, but even 08 if I didn't do this one, I think I would want to 09 claim -- it's -- I would certainly claim this one. 10 This was -- even if I didn't do this one, this is is a 11 good one. 12 Q Uh-huh. 13 A And PS -- 14 Q You find this whole thing kind of amusing, don't 15 you? 16 A Oh, this is screamingly funny. 17 Q You find it amusing to make Helena Kobrin and 18 the church go after you or other people for this sort 19 of thing, whether you have the materials or not; is 20 that right? 21 A It's a great game. 22 Q It is a great game. You really find it amusing, 23 don't you? 24 A It's an extremely amusing thing. 25 Q All right. You find it amusing when you receive 26 these letters from Ms. Kobrin, the cease and desist 0064 01 letters? It's part of the game; isn't it? 02 A Well, we'll get to that later. 03 Q No, this is the question now. 04 A Well, if you figure -- if you find in that pile 05 of stuff the SP levels, we can discuss that at this 06 point. It's a matter of status -- 07 Q Sir, I ask the questions, you answer them. You 08 find the whole thing an amusing game, right? 09 A I can only answer that question in the context 10 of the SP levels. 11 Q You find it an amusing part of the game when you 12 receive these cease and desist letters, right? 13 A No, no. It's not amusing, it's a major 14 increment in status. 15 Q I see. You feel this increases your status, 16 right? 17 A Oh, absolutely. 18 Q On the internet, on a.r.s. 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. And it's all part of this game, 21 right? 22 A Absolutely. 23 Q It's all part of the troll, right? 24 A This is a great troll (indicating). 25 Q Thank you. 26 A I mean, anybody in the computer business 0065 01 instantly would have spotted this, ftp:127. In fact, 02 it even says trolls in here (indicating). In fact, 03 this was cross-posted from -- 04 Q There is no question pending. You can hold your 05 comments. 06 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see number 96. 07 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, this is just too 08 funny. 09 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Why did you think 10 this would cause Ms. Kobrin to blow a gasket? 11 A Actually, if she had access to anybody who knew 12 anything whatsoever about computers and ftp and stuff 13 like that, she would never even -- never even consider 14 it to be anything whatsoever. 15 Q Yes, but you assumed she didn't, right? 16 A This wasn't addressed to Helena. 17 Q But you thought that this might cause her to 18 blow a gasket? 19 A No, I figured -- this was a joke. 20 Q But you figured that if she, in fact, did think 21 that Mr. Volk had the OT materials on an ftp site she 22 would blow a gasket, right? 23 A Not likely. 24 Q You don't think she would be upset by that? 25 A Well -- 26 Q If it were a real ftp site? 0066 01 A The assumption is that somebody would actually 02 try this and see, and the fact of it is that there 03 was -- it was a loopback to your own local -- if it 04 worked at all, it would be a loopback to your own 05 local machine. Only one machine in a thousand or less 06 than that would have this particular address or 07 directory structure in it which would get this. So 08 anybody who attempted to actually look and see the 09 thing would instantly discover that it was -- that it 10 was a troll, but, I mean, you can see it's a troll 11 from the 127 in there. That's the loopback address. 12 These four digits that are in here separated by 13 periods are the IP addresses. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Can you mark that. 15 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 8 was 16 marked for identification by the 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 18 THE WITNESS: Yes? 19 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. Do you 20 know who L. Sobocinski is? 21 A No. No idea. I think this particular person is 22 a Scientologist. If it's important for the case, I 23 can have CompuServe tell me who his real name is. 24 Q I just asked you whether you know who he is, he 25 or she. You don't? 26 A No. 0067 01 Q Okay. This is a -- this exhibit is a posting 02 dated April 7, '95 from Keith Henson to a.r.s. "Re: 03 Good stuff from one that's been there" and which 04 begins with quoting a posting from somebody named L. 05 Sobocinski, S-O-B-O-C-I-N-S-K-I, in which -- which 06 states that "You really shouldn't publish stuff that 07 purports to be confidential" and you shouldn't fill up 08 Scientologist's e-mail with obscene and threatening 09 messages, "but you do." And there's a response 10 from -- purports to be from Mr. Henson which says, 11 "Mr. Sobocinski, it is within the bounds of acceptable 12 net behavior to post obscene and threatening e-mail 13 without warning." Is that true? 14 A Absolutely. 15 Q Really. That's considered acceptable net 16 behavior? 17 A Absolutely. If you get a threatening e-mail, it 18 is threatening e-mail letter or obscene material that 19 you don't want to have seen, it is absolutely 20 considered that you don't -- it's not welcome to you, 21 it is considered to be absolutely within the bounds of 22 behavior to post private mail to you instantly on 23 those kind of conditions. Again, I cannot swear to 24 this being actually a letter-perfect copy of my 25 posting, but certainly the stuff that is -- purports 26 to be by me is utterly consistent. I said in here he 0068 01 was saying that -- he was saying anti-Scientologists 02 were engaging in behavior of filling up their e-mail 03 with obscene and threatening messages, and I said 04 please post this stuff, which is the normal behavior. 05 Q Okay. 06 A He didn't. Or whatever is behind this -- this 07 account didn't. If I remember correctly. 08 Q So you do remember this communication? 09 A This is consistent with what I would have done, 10 but, like I say, I cannot swear that this is letter 11 perfect for what I -- for an actual real posting of 12 mine. 13 Q All right. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I need to take a 15 five-minute break, so we can go off the record. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. Thank you. 17 Hearing no objection, the time now is 10:54. We're 18 going off the record. Clear to talk. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 21 record. The time now is 11:08. Go ahead, please. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. I think you said, 23 correct me if I'm wrong, that there are a.r.s. 24 archives maintained somewhere? 25 A Yes. There are -- I've forgotten who the 26 person's name is that maintains it, but there's at 0069 01 least one person that tries to download everything 02 that's on a.r.s. Well, so does the Church of 03 Scientology. As far as I know they get everything. 04 Q But other than the Church of Scientology, do you 05 know who it would be? 06 A I can't remember her name now. 07 Q Is this something somebody -- anybody can access 08 from the internet or do you have to contact the person 09 independently? 10 A No, you'd have to post a message asking to have 11 somebody send it to you if you have something specific 12 that you want. 13 Q Do you know the internet address of that person? 14 A No. I can't remember what it is. 15 Q Would you have it back home or something like 16 that? 17 A No, but if I wanted it -- wanted it I could 18 certainly find -- I'd just post a message and ask 19 who's got them. It's a woman who might be a lawyer, 20 if I remember correctly, and her first name starts 21 with a D, but I'm not sure. 22 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 23 Kobrin.) 24 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Deanna Holmes? 25 A That sounds right. Maybe. 26 Q And your understanding is this person, whether 0070 01 it's Deanna Holmes or somebody else, has maintained a 02 complete archive from the creation, so to speak? 03 A I don't think so. There might have been some 04 other people who have some material back from last 05 year, but I -- or sorry, '94, but I believe that 06 there's some stuff which is lost because nobody -- 07 nobody kept it. 08 Q Okay. And how were you able to determine 09 that -- your number of postings? At least the ones 10 that you could calculate were 1,200. 11 A I looked at the counter. 12 Q Where do you look at the counter? Where -- 13 A In tine there's -- unless you go to some trouble [tin] 14 to shut it off, tin keeps a count of your postings. 15 And I actually -- of the 1,228 that were counted, that 16 I counted in the tin file on both Portal and Netcom, 17 my guess is that around 80 percent, maybe even 90 18 percent of that would have been a.r.s. postings. 19 a.r.s. has been a very interesting place in the last 20 year. It has a lot of the characteristics of a soap 21 opera. 22 Q Okay. Do you know who Homer is? 23 A Yes. Or -- I've never met him or talked to him 24 on the phone or -- it's possible that I've exchanged 25 one or two e-mails with him, but I know -- I know who 26 he is. He's the creator of alt.clearing.technology. 0071 01 Q What's alt.clearing.technology? 02 A It's the place where the free-zoners hang out. 03 Q Okay. Now, who are the free-zoners? 04 A Free-zoners are the people that said goodbye to 05 the Church of Scientology but are still practicing 06 that particular auditing and other kind of practices 07 that the Scientologists do. 08 Q I see. So they -- they do things like NOTs and 09 they do things like the OT levels? 10 A I don't know. I don't -- I don't know any of 11 them, you know, except a little bit through the net. 12 They've struck me -- people like -- oh, Ken Long, for 13 example, argued incessantly that body thetans have 14 mass or ingrams have mass. I forget which one it was. [engrams] 15 Q Right. Was Ken Long a free-zoner? 16 A I don't know actually whether he had actually 17 been active with the free-zone or not. The church 18 certainly threw him out after what he thinks is 19 ripping him of for a couple of hundred thousand. [off] 20 Q I see. But the free-zoners believe in the text, 21 so to speak, of Scientology as far as you know? 22 A Yeah, they -- as the Scientologists refer to it, 23 they squirrel it a lot, which means they change it. 24 Q All right. 25 A I don't know much about it. The ones that post 26 to the net seem to be kind of looney for the most 0072 01 part. 02 Q Now, Homer is one of the free-zoners? 03 A Yeah. 04 Q And he posts to both a.r.s. and also to 05 alt.clearing.technology? 06 A Right. 07 Q All right. 08 A I don't know what he says 'cause I killfiled him 09 a long time ago. 10 Q Explain to the record for us on the record what 11 killfiled means. 12 A alt.religion.scientology has as many as 5- or 13 600 postings to it a day. That's far too many to 14 read, and a lot of them are seriously off topic or 15 they're by people that just write stuff that is so 16 weird it's incomprehensible. Koos, for example, or 17 Koos, I guess, is how it's actually pronounced. So 18 what you can do with a lot of news readers is you can 19 hit control K and then go through a little menu and it 20 will produce as a file called killfile and the 21 killfile then essentially just -- when you sign in to 22 read the group, it just goes through and just deletes 23 all of -- just takes out of your view all the authors 24 or the topics that you've killfiled. 25 Q I see. 26 A My killfile is about somewhere between 15- and 0073 01 20,000 bytes. It's a big killfile. 02 Q And is Homer one of the people who you've put in 03 your killfile or not? 04 A I -- well, my killfiles are not consistent 05 between Portal and Netcom, and so I'm not actually 06 sure whether I got him killfiled in both places or 07 not. If he isn't posting very much I couldn't really 08 tell. I don't know when -- I don't really know 09 whether he's killfiled or not, but I could find out if 10 it was important. 11 Q Okay. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Done with this. Okay. 13 Let me have number 107. 14 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Did you ever meet 15 with somebody named Aron Mason? 16 A Yes. Very early in this business. 17 Q Yes. 18 A It was right after the Computers, Privacy and 19 Freedom Conference, I think, CPF, whenever it stood 20 for. 21 Q That's sponsered by EFF? 22 A Yeah. I didn't go to the conference, but I did 23 go to a rump session that was held afterwards that 24 was -- I think Leipold spoke there and John Perry 25 Barlow and I think Mason -- in fact, I'm sure Mason 26 was one of the people, Mason and Jeff Quiros were the 0074 01 people that showed up there at that. 02 Q And what was -- what was the circumstances of 03 your meeting with them? 04 A Well, it was after all this hoorah had broken 05 loose on the net and I -- I decided I wanted to see 06 what -- see what -- there's -- the session was 07 specifically on the Scientologists and the net, and so 08 I wanted to go see what it was about. And I met Aron 09 and Jeff, and I think they were the only two 10 Scientologists who were there. I do remember in the 11 meeting, at the question and answer part after that, 12 of making sure that they had a chance to speak. 13 Q Okay. What was your impression of them when you 14 met them? 15 A Weird people. 16 Q Uh-huh. Did they say anything to you -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q -- that you remember? 19 A That was one of my first experiences with TRL, 20 people who'd been heavily trained in lying, and it was 21 most amusing because at that point I had just read 22 Andre Tobayion's affidavit. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And, of course, they were referring to him as a 25 backhoe operateor with no knowledge or power at all in 26 the Church of Scientology. 0075 01 Q I see. And you had knowledge that that was not 02 true? 03 A Well, I had read an extensive deposition -- or 04 not deposition, a declaration to the extent and had 05 seen such things as the fact that Andre had been in 06 charge of something in Portland that involved 07 thousands of Scientologists, so I -- I was actually 08 impressed by how well they were able to just absolute 09 straight-faced dead-pan lie. I was -- they did a good 10 job. Well-trained. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Can you mark that. 12 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 9 was 13 marked for identification by the 14 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 15 THE WITNESS: Is this my account of that 16 meeting? 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Take a look. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, again, it's one of the 19 things which I can't -- oh, Woody. I can't verify 20 that this is actually the posting that I did, but 21 let's see what it's about. 22 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Let me just 23 identify it for the record while you're taking a look 24 at it. This is a posting from Keith Henson to a.r.s., 25 "Subject: Re: LSD," dated April 8th, 1995, and it 26 contains a dialogue between Mr. Henson and somebody 0076 01 named -- 02 A Woody. 03 Q Also a Rick Sherwood in there? 04 A That's Woody. 05 Q Okay. So quoted in here is a statement in which 06 you give an account of your meeting with Jeff Quiros 07 and Aron Mason; is that right? 08 A Right. 09 Q Okay. And down at the bottom of that page, you 10 see where you say, "Do you have any idea of how wide 11 our circle of friends is"? 12 A Uh-huh. 13 Q Who did you mean by our? 14 A Ahh, the net. 15 Q The net? 16 A 30 million people. 17 Q And what did you mean by your circle of friends? 18 A I'm probably known by 10,000 people, and between 19 the people that I know and the people that folks like 20 Grady knows and the people that Ron Newman knows and 21 Jeff Jacobsen, and, you know, you're dealing with 22 people with big net presences -- presence, and I 23 notice that this is actually in response to a posting 24 by M. Council, because I have killfiled Woody, and if 25 she hadn't responded to Woody, I would have never 26 known that Woody had responded to my posting. 0077 01 Q Okay. Now, you say, "Do you have the slightest 02 idea of who you are threatening?" What threat are you 03 referring to in this particular dialogue or trialogue 04 or whatever it is? 05 A I'm -- let's see. Probably the "Scientologists 06 fight back. I know you don't like this. But they 07 persist," which was Woody's statement. 08 Q Okay. So that's what you meant by a threat. 09 A Yeah, in the context of the previous sentence, 10 which is "Henson, be careful, here. Others don't have 11 your bias and you might lose some credibility if you 12 try to make" out -- "make it out for what it was not." 13 And I -- my comment on that was "I" can't "figure out 14 which part of my posting" you're "referring to," and 15 then went on down, "If" you're "referring to the Ms. 16 Bloody/Tom K./-AB- extended episode, I clearly stated 17 that it" made "no sense to me." I went on to say, "It 18 is just about the weirdest story" I've "ever heard, 19 and if you or anyone else in or out of CoS can explain 20 it, I'd be nothing short of delighted. If you are 21 referring to my reporting of the EFF meeting, my bias 22 in these matters is fully on the record." 23 Q What is your bias? 24 A Oh, in favor of freedom of expression and I'm, 25 of course, opposed to the kind of brainwashing and 26 other sorts of abuse that the Church of Scientology is 0078 01 well-known for doing. 02 Q Okay. 03 A Ahh, right. Aron mentioned -- he mentioned that 04 Fishman had never been a CoS member -- 05 Q There is no question on the table. 06 A Great stuff. Again, like I say, I'm not sure 07 this is mine, but it certainly is consistent with the 08 kind of things I would do. 09 Q Now, approximately when did you first post the 10 six or seven lines from OT VII to the internet? 11 A I'm sorry, I don't remember. You people no 12 doubt know. 13 Q Would it refresh your memory if I said it was in 14 the middle of July of 1995; does that sound about 15 right? 16 A It sounds about right, yeah. 17 Q And where did you obtain the -- 18 A I was responding to somebody else's posting, 19 which means that I obtained it right there on the 20 screen by hitting the F key for follow-up, and that 21 the previous posting then with these appropriate kinds 22 of colons or greater-than signs jumped into my buffer, 23 and I probably deleted some of the text which was in 24 there because I normally do that, and then I posted 25 some kind of comment on it beyond that probably, and 26 hit the key that causes it to be posted to the net. 0079 01 Q Had you obtained copies, electronic copies or 02 computer disk copies of OT VII prior to that? 03 A Other than the fact that I think it had been on 04 the news spool -- on machines that I had access for 05 days before that, no. 06 Q But had you downloaded that? 07 A No. You got to be kidding. 08 Q When you posted it, was it sitting on any 09 computer memory of yours? 10 A Well, yeah, it was sitting in the computer 11 memory. Let's see. It was in the video RAM memory of 12 my terminal emulation program and it was in the memory 13 on either Portal or Netcom, whichever one I was using, 14 of that machine. 15 Q Why did you repost it? 16 A I don't remember. I wrote some kind of comment 17 on it and reposted it the way people do with stuff on 18 the net. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Number -- 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, my goodness. Is that -- 21 is that it in front of you there? Count the number of 22 symbols in front of the lines. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: 124. 24 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 25 Kobrin.) 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: You'll get a copy in a 0080 01 minute, sir. 02 THE WITNESS: Six. I didn't realize it 03 was that far in. 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: Will you mark that. 05 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 10 was 06 marked for identification by the 07 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 08 MS. KOBRIN: Was that 10 that we're up 09 to? 10 THE REPORTER: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: (Laughter). 12 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. This is a 13 posting from Keith Henson to a.r.s. dated July 21, 14 '95. Subject is "Helena Kobrin threatens yet another 15 lawsuit." Down at the bottom is a posting of several 16 lines from "OT7," capital O, capital T, 7, which has 17 been blacked out for purposes of this exhibit since we 18 are marking this exhibit as part of the deposition 19 record. And it responds to a posting by somebody 20 named Tom Betz. Do you know who Tom Betz is, sir? 21 A No. 22 Q And Tom Betz is quoting somebody named Hillel 23 who, in fact, was quoting you, I believe, is the way 24 this works; is that right? 25 A Right. 26 Q And you had written "has anyone from California 0081 01 been graced with one of these letters, or do ours come 02 hand delivered with a summons?" What kind of letter 03 were you referring to there? 04 A Helena's letters. 05 Q These were cease and desist letters? 06 A Yes. 07 Q To cease and desist from posting -- 08 A Six lines. 09 Q Of OT VII; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then at the end you say, "I posted 16 12 lines." Do you know what you meant by that? 13 A No. I'm not -- like I say, I'm not even sure 14 that this is actually one of my postings, but if it 15 is, I don't even know what the 16 lines would have 16 referred to. Presumably it would have been before 17 this in time if this indeed is one of my -- a true 18 representation of one of my postings, but wherever I 19 was posting this thing, I was posting it quoting 20 people six levels deep. So six other people had 21 quoted exactly the same material before I quoted it. 22 Q Okay. And then you quoted it and posted it 23 again, right? 24 A Right. 25 Q Okay. Do you remember that there had been six 26 other people who'd done that previously? 0082 01 A No, that's just from -- you just see that from 02 the number of symbols that precede the lines involved. 03 Q Actually, there are five, I believe. 04 A Well, the colon counts, too. 05 Q The colon counts? 06 A Yeah. Some machines -- mine uses colons. In 07 fact, you can tell that, but I apparently cut this out 08 of some other posting and stuck it there. 09 Q So -- 10 A If this was my posting. 11 Q But you did post these six or seven lines of OT 12 VII, we already established that, right? 13 A Six lines. 14 Q Yeah. Okay. 15 A Well, presumptively I did, but I don't know that 16 this is the posting where I did it. 17 Q But you did. Okay. Now -- 18 A I -- 19 Q Did you -- 20 A I can't even tell you that it's OT VII, to be 21 truthful about it. I've never seen the originals. 22 Q Did -- did you receive a cease and desist letter 23 from Helena Kobrin as a result of this? 24 A As a result of something. 25 Q As a result of posting six lines of OT VII? 26 A As a result of something. Of posting probably 0083 01 the six lines. I don't know what actually caused it. 02 Q Well, what did the letter say caused it? 03 A I don't remember. I gave you guys a copy of it. 04 Whatever's in the letter. 05 Q But you don't remember what the letter said? 06 A No. Heaven's sakes, it was three pages or 07 something. 08 Q When you received this letter, did this increase 09 your status? 10 A Oh, yes. 11 Q You felt good when you got that letter, right? 12 A Oh, I was quite amused. 13 Q Did you let people know you'd received the 14 letter? 15 A Oh, yes. Matter of fact, I printed it up and 16 posted it on the BBS -- sorry, posted on the cork 17 board where I work. 18 Q Right. And before you received the letter, did 19 you indicate that you wanted to receive such a letter? 20 A I might have. It was quite a status symbol at 21 that point. However, I'm afraid that Helena degraded 22 the status very quickly by sending out I don't know 23 how many. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm informed that we need 25 to change the tape, so why don't we go off the record 26 while the videographer changes the tape. 0084 01 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. This is the 02 completion of tape number 1 in the deposition of Keith 03 Henson on May 8th, 1996. The time now is 11:33. 04 We're going off the record. Clear to talk. 05 (Recess taken.) 06 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 07 record. This is start of tape number 2 in the 08 deposition of Keith Henson on May 8th, 1996. The time 09 now is 11:37. Go ahead, please. 10 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 11 was 11 marked for identification by the 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 13 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. I have 14 asked the reporter to mark as Exhibit Number 11 a 15 posting to a.r.s. and other news groups from H.K. 16 Henson, subject again "Helena Kobrin threatens yet 17 another lawsuit." And there is a quote from somebody 18 named Dave Barron. Do you know who Dave Barron is? 19 A No. No, I don't. 20 Q And then after -- 21 A Who's quoting somebody else. 22 Q Okay. He's quoting somebody named Zeltar, I 23 think, Z-E-L-T-A-R, and then he responds to Zeltar 24 saying, "I really don't understand why dissemination 25 of these six lines could cause CoS members or their 26 lawyers to exert so much fuss and bother," et cetera, 0085 01 and then there's a comment by Mr. Henson that says, 02 "Dave," I'm "going to be really pissed if you manage 03 to get a letter from Ms. Maginta (sic) lips and I 04 don't." Here you're referring to your desire to 05 receive a cease and desist letter from Helena Kobrin, 06 are you not? 07 A Assuming that this is actually one of my 08 postings, that would seem to be the drift of it. 09 Q Well, that was your attitude, wasn't it? 10 A Assuming this is actually a posting of mine, 11 yes. 12 Q But whether this was a posting of yours or not, 13 that was your attitude, was it not, that you would -- 14 really wanted to receive such a letter and you'd be 15 really pissed if somebody else did and you didn't, in 16 your words, right? 17 A That's true. Right. Not that I'm owning up to 18 this one actually being one of my postings, but that 19 was -- there was certainly a great status, one up's 20 manship going on at that particular time on the 21 internet as to who could get one of these and who 22 couldn't. 23 Q Had you ever used -- did you ever use the term 24 Ms. Magenta lips to refer to Helena Kobrin? 25 A Before this? I don't know. 26 Q Have you ever used it? 0086 01 A Assuming this is one of my postings, yes. 02 Q Is it a term that rings a bell with you? 03 A No. 04 Q Okay. And you did receive such a letter, didn't 05 you? 06 A I've already stated that. If fact, I gave you 07 guys a copy of it. 08 Q Okay. 09 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 10 Kobrin.) 11 THE WITNESS: And if I failed to thank 12 Helena for the letter at that point, I certainly would 13 like to do so now. 14 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): You really got a 15 kick out of that letter? 16 A Oh, I posted it on the local -- like I say, the 17 local cork board. People were laughing about it all 18 week at the company. 19 Q You were laughing about it, too, right? 20 A Oh, it was a scream. For six lines? You got to 21 be kidding. It didn't work after awhile. I think I 22 was one of the last. 23 Q What was it that didn't work? 24 A Oh, she quit giving them out. 25 Q For those -- for those particular six lines, you 26 mean? 0087 01 A Yeah. Finally gave up. 02 Q You didn't post those six lines again though, 03 did you? 04 A I don't know. A lot of people put them in their 05 sigs. I don't really know whether I posted them again 06 or not. 07 Q Put them in their what? 08 A Sig lines. 09 Q What's a sig line? 10 A If you set something in what's called a sig 11 line, then at the end of every posting, it just block 12 adds whatever's in a file called .sig, and there were 13 people who had it in their sig blocks at the end of 14 their postings for -- 15 Q So then it would stay, in effect, in the memory 16 on their computers? 17 A Yeah. It was a file in their computer that 18 would automatically be posted there, and there's a 19 bunch of people that did it for months. 20 Q Did you put it in you sig? 21 A No. I don't use sig block. 22 Q I see. 23 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 24 Kobrin.) 25 MR. WARD: Would you like a pen knife? 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you. I'm okay. If 0088 01 you could mark that, please. 02 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 12 was 03 marked for identification by the 04 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 05 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll give you a copy in a 06 minute, as soon as I perform a little surgery here. 07 Here you go. 08 THE WITNESS: Well, again, I could 09 certainly not -- I mean, this isn't even something 10 from me. I could -- certainly could not say that this 11 is -- is character accurate to what I would have 12 received from Helena at that particular time or 13 whoever was behind the HKK account since that account 14 has been used at times when Helena was clearly other 15 places, but I don't know. I -- okay. What do you 16 want me to say about it? 17 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Right. Does -- 18 did you receive this letter? 19 A I don't know. Prob -- it's quite possible I 20 received it, but I can't -- I certainly can't verify 21 it. 22 Q But you did receive such a letter of this 23 character, a cease and desist letter from Helena 24 Kobrin, you can't looking at it identify it 25 specifically, but this is in the nature of what you 26 received; is that your testimony? 0089 01 A Actually, I think -- I think the one I got was 02 longer. I'm not sure. 03 Q Okay. 04 A I'm not at all sure. 05 Q Did -- 06 A It's a form letter. 07 Q Did you also receive a copy of a letter that was 08 sent to your systems operator concerning your posting 09 of these? 10 A No. 11 Q No? Did you receive any communication from your 12 systems operator warning you about copy -- potential 13 copyright infringement? 14 A No. 15 Q At any time did you receive such a communication 16 from any -- 17 A No. 18 Q -- any systems operator? 19 A Never heard from any of them. Not that I can 20 remember. It's not like they might not have sent 21 something to me. E-mail is not a hundred percent 22 reliable. But I can't recall ever having seen 23 anything from either of my service providers. 24 Anything at all. 25 Q Who are your two service providers again? I'm 26 sorry. 0090 01 A Netcom and Portal. 02 Q Netcom and Portal. You usually use Portal? 03 A It varies. In the early part -- in recent times 04 Portal has had problems with being -- the news spool 05 being real slow. So I've tended to shift to Netcom 06 more, but then Netcom dropped some postings on the 07 floor, and so I was doing some from Portal recently. 08 Q Now -- now you said that when you received the 09 cease and desist letter from Helena you posted it to 10 a.r.s.? 11 A I don't remember whether I did that or not. 12 Q I thought you just testified that you -- 13 A No, no. I posted it on the physical cork 14 bulletin board. Printed out a copy and posted it. 15 Q But you didn't post it to the internet? 16 A I don't recall whether I did that or not. I 17 might have. There were so many copies of it at that 18 time that I -- that it's -- if I had -- if I had done 19 it, it would have been excessive. 20 Q But didn't you want to let everybody know on 21 a.r.s. that you had gotten such a letter so that your 22 status would go up? 23 A Of course, of course. You have to actually show 24 that. I mean, when you get to that, you'll see why. 25 Q All right. And to do that, wouldn't you have 26 had to post it then? 0091 01 A I might have. I don't -- I just don't remember. 02 I might well have posted it, but it was so -- like I 03 say, there were so many copies of it and they were all 04 the same that I don't remember whether I did it or 05 not. 06 Q Now, you say when we get to that. What did you 07 mean? 08 A SP levels. If you get to that. 09 Q Now, what do you mean by SP levels? 10 A Well, I gave you the -- the official -- 11 Q The document you produced? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Might as well take a look at that document. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Do we have copies of this? 15 THE WITNESS: I think I've got one more 16 with me. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Stuck it in the back here. 18 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 19 Kobrin.) 20 THE WITNESS: In you want, we can enter 21 that one as an exhibit and -- we can go ahead and 22 enter it as an exhibit and run some copies of it 23 later. I know the contents. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: You may need to look at it 25 and I may need to look at it. 26 THE WITNESS: I think I got another copy. 0092 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: You have another copy of 02 it? Okay. 03 THE WITNESS: I think I do. 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: Why don't you mark that as 05 the next exhibit. 06 THE WITNESS: Yes. I have a copy. 07 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 13 was 08 marked for identification by the 09 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 10 THE WITNESS: This also gets us into 11 ARSCC. 12 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Now, this is a 13 letter -- this is a document which you produced in 14 discovery in this case; is that right? 15 A Right. I didn't actually have this one, if you 16 note the date on it, I didn't have this one when -- 17 when the suit was filed or even when I was in for the 18 TRO hearing, this is the 18th of April, but since I 19 knew -- I wanted to provide -- I wanted to be helpful 20 and provide you guys with something along this, so 21 when I saw this one cross the net, I downloaded it and 22 printed it out. 23 Q Okay. Now, this is a posting to a.r.s. and 24 subject "RFD:" -- 25 A That's request for discussion. 26 Q "SP levels." 0093 01 A Yes. 02 Q And then it says, "Organization: 03 ARSCC" -- 04 A Yes. 05 Q -- "...Mr. Castle," C-A-S-T-L-E, "to you." Now, 06 what is ARSCC? 07 A Beats me. I mean, people -- I would say that 08 probably the -- ARS is for alt.religion.scientology. 09 The CC is probably central committee is sort of the 10 most common usage of it. It's been called clam 11 council, coordinating council, coordinating committee. 12 Q Okay. Now, who's on this committee or council 13 or whatever? 14 A Haven't the slightest idea. 15 Q Okay. 16 A It's mythical. At least -- actually, I 17 shouldn't -- 18 Q Didn't just appear out of nowhere. Somebody is 19 responsible for it. 20 A I shouldn't say that. There may actually be an 21 ARSCC, but my suspicion is that it's a troll. 22 Q Uh-huh. But if it is a troll, there's obviously 23 somebody who's trolling, right? 24 A Oh, there's a lot of people who troll on this. 25 Q Now, do you have any knowledge or information as 26 to who may be doing this troll? 0094 01 A Oh, I've trolled on it. Especially when 02 somebody makes some kind of a statement about the 03 thing, I'll make some minor correction, you know, like 04 I'll say I looked it up in this book and cite some 05 seven digit policy letter number. 06 Q Now, just for the record, what is a troll? 07 A Ahh. It comes from fishing where you drag a 08 bait through the water and a fish is foolish enough to 09 grab it. 10 Q So it's like a joke, right? It's a put-on? 11 A It's a put-on, yes, usually, but it's very 12 difficult to say because, as we all know, put-on's can 13 take on horrible kinds of -- of levels of problems. 14 In fact, it's my considered opinion that all of 15 Scientology was a put-on by L. Ron Hubbard, and look 16 at where that went. 17 Q Okay. Now, this posting purports to be 18 something called "the current ARSCC SP levels FAQ." 19 What is FAQ? 20 A Frequently asked questions. 21 Q Okay. And that's a term that's used on the 22 internet, right? 23 A Right. The frequently asked questions are 24 usually kept at a site called rtfmmit.mu. [rtfm.mit.edu] 25 Q Now, what this purports to be is a listing of 26 various levels of status, as you put it -- 0095 01 A Right. 02 Q -- whereby people who have taken various actions 03 against the church are given higher levels of SP -- 04 A No, it's not actions against the church, it's 05 actions of the church against them for the most part, 06 with the exception of 7. 07 Q Well, let's take a look at 1. 1 says, "The SP1 08 grade is gained by criticizing the cult openly." So 09 that's an action that somebody takes again the church? 10 A Right, you're right. There's a couple of them. 11 Q "This is generally achieved by posting a message 12 critical of the cult to" a.r.s. "but can also be done 13 by protesting outside a Scientology location," right? 14 A Uh-huh. 15 Q So you clearly qualify here for SP1 level, 16 right? 17 A Right, right. 18 Q Okay. Now, you've never been sued, by the way, 19 for criticizing the cult openly or for posting a 20 message critical of the cult, that SP1 level doesn't 21 result in a lawsuit, does it? 22 A No, no. You have to go much higher than that to 23 get -- to be -- 24 Q Now, SP2, it says, "can be earned by receiving 25 an acknowledgement from a Scientologist. This 26 generally takes the form of a response to your 0096 01 message"..."but in the case of protests, will 02 generally be achieved by a Scientologist talking to 03 you." So you qualified for that one, too, right? 04 A Oh, yes. 05 Q All right. Then "SP3 is earned by having one of 06 your message cancelled by a forged cancel message from 07 the pro-Scientology cancelpoodle." Now, you already 08 stated that you have no information as to whether or 09 not you qualify for that, but you suspect that you 10 have; is that your point? 11 A I think mine was cancelled. I'm not sure. Oh, 12 you mean the more recent -- oh, back way when, yeah. 13 I don't remember for sure. Mine probably was 14 cancelled back. 15 Q But you don't know for sure? 16 A I think she cancelled -- I think Helena had all 17 of them cancelled before she sent the letters out. 18 Q But don't know that. You're just speculating? 19 A Right. It's something which should be -- which 20 should be discoverable by finding out who owns the 21 accounts which were used for running the cancels. 22 Netcom has gone through maybe 50 or a hundred of those 23 accounts by now. 24 Q Now, SP4 -- is that the highest level, SP4? 25 A Oh, no, it goes on. 26 Q Oh, yeah, I see. "SP4 is achieved by receiving 0097 01 a legal threat from the Church"..."In the vast 02 majority of cases, this has been via an e-mail message 03 from Helena Kobrin." This would be the cease and 04 desist letter we're talking about; is that right? 05 A Right. 06 Q So that's what you were hoping to achieve by 07 receiving -- 08 A Well, you can then put it in your sig line that 09 you're an SP4. A lot of other people crowd their sig 10 lines up with Knights of Xenu and all sorts of other 11 stuff, but I usually forget to even put my SP rating 12 on it. 13 Q So then this goes on, but the point is that this 14 is something you aspired to achieve; is that right? 15 A Well, it's a status symbol. I mean, a.r.s. is a 16 culture, it's a little culture. You know, 30,000 17 people. 18 Q And within this culture, you aspired to achieve 19 this level by getting this letter from Helena, and lo 20 and behold, you got it and you were very happy. 21 A Well, for something which actually didn't 22 present any level of danger whatsoever, because nobody 23 is going to really sue somebody over six lines of 24 scripture. 25 TIME: 11:56 26 Q Okay. Now, do you know who Arnie Lerma is? 0098 01 A Yes. 02 Q Have you ever met Arnie Lerma? 03 A No. 04 Q Have you ever spoken to him on the phone? 05 A Yes. 06 Q About how many times have you spoken to him on 07 the phone? 08 A I can only think of one time that I spoke to him 09 on the phone, and it was just after he had been 10 subjected to a search and seizure operation on his 11 house. I may have -- 12 Q Was it while the search and seizure was going 13 on? 14 A I don't think so. I think it was just after it 15 was over. 16 Q Uh-huh. And why did he call you if you'd never 17 spoken to him before? 18 A He didn't call me, I called him. 19 Q I see. And why did you call him? 20 A Well, to see what was going on and to express my 21 support and sympathies for his problems. 22 Q How did you find out what was going on? 23 A On the net. It was posted. 24 Q Was -- did Arnie Lerma e-mail you? 25 A I don't remember whether it was an IRC or just 26 a posting to a.r.s., but I found out about it when -- 0099 01 not while it was going on, but within a matter of -- 02 my guess would be hours of when it happened. 03 Q I see. Are you sure you didn't get the phone 04 call or the information while it was going on? 05 A It could have been, but it's not my recollection 06 that it occurred while it was going on. 07 Q In fact, didn't you -- didn't you make a posting 08 to a.r.s. informing people that the raid was going on 09 as it was going on? 10 A It's possible that I did. I don't -- I do not 11 remember having -- I do not remember exactly how I 12 found out about it or what stage it was that it was 13 going on at that time. It's been a long time, but if 14 I made a posting on it, perhaps you could introduce 15 that and refresh my memory on it, if indeed it is my 16 posting. 17 Q Now, when you spoke to Arnie Lerma, what did you 18 talk about? 19 A He was extremely distraught, as anybody would be 20 who just had their house tore up by a bunch of people 21 acting under color of law. I cannot -- I don't 22 remember what the contents of that conversation were, 23 but it was not -- it was essentially nothing of any 24 great substance to it. 25 Q Did you discuss with him any plans to post 26 materials yourself? 0100 01 A No. 02 Q No. Did he suggest that that might be a good 03 idea? 04 A No. 05 Q Did you ever discuss with him whether he planned 06 to make further postings? 07 A No. 08 Q Did you ever discuss with him the SCAMIZDAT 09 postings? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever communicate with him electronically 12 or by computer on any of those subjects? 13 A I don't believe I have ever done that with him 14 on it. If -- 15 Q Have -- I'm sorry, go ahead. 16 A If I did, it was -- I don't think I did. I 17 might have, but I don't remember having ever given 18 anybody any advice -- certainly not giving Arnie any 19 advice on it. It was pretty much of a surprise when 20 he posted something and therefore exposed himself to 21 legal action for which there really wasn't a whole lot 22 of reason. 23 Q Uh-huh. Did he ever e-mail to you any of the 24 Scientology materials? 25 A No. 26 Q Did he ever tell you that he had e-mailed those 0101 01 materials to Grady Ward? 02 A No. 03 Q Did Grady Ward ever tell you that? 04 A No. 05 Q Do you have any information as to whether or not 06 Arnie Lerma ever sent or e-mailed any materials to 07 Grady Ward? 08 A No. I have no information at all. 09 Q Since the time of the raid, search and seizure 10 on Arnie Lerma's house, have you had any direct 11 communications with him other than the phone call you 12 already identified? 13 A Oh, yes. For example, this is in my letter to 14 the judge, Arnie sent me a letter that he had written 15 to judge -- I'm not sure how to pronounce the name. 16 It's Brinkema -- 17 Q Brinkema, yes. 18 A -- Brinkema about being dosed with acid -- LSD 19 that he found -- that he things he had on his [thinks] 20 toothbrush after the raid. 21 Q So he sent that letter to you? 22 A Yeah, just so that I could print it out and 23 deliver it to the judge, Judge Whyte. 24 Q And you did that, right? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And Judge Whyte returned it to you; is that 0102 01 right? 02 A No, Judge Whyte still has that letter as far as 03 I know. 04 Q I see. Now, did you discuss that with Arnie 05 Lerma, the contents of that letter, that incident? 06 A It's possible, but if I recall, that incident 07 was first discussed on an IRC, that's internet relay 08 chat, session that I wasn't at, and at later Arnie 09 asked me to print and deliver this letter to Judge 10 Whyte. 11 Q And how did he ask you to do that, by what 12 method? 13 A E-mail. 14 Q Uh-huh. Did you ever inquire of Arnie Lerma why 15 he used the toothbrush if he thought it was laced with 16 LSD? 17 A Well, he didn't know it until after he used it. 18 Q Did you read his letter? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And he says in the letter that he suspected it 21 before he used it. 22 A No, he doesn't. At least, I don't remember 23 having read that. Maybe he does. He certainly 24 suspected it afterwards. He says it was only because 25 he ran it under hot water for a considerable time that 26 he got a relatively small dose of it. 0103 01 Q Why did he run it under water for a long time? 02 A Because he was too cheap to buy a new 03 toothbrush. Or actually too poor. 04 Q But why was he running it under hot water to 05 begin with? 06 A To loosen it up so that the mechanism would 07 work. It's an electric toothbrush. 08 Q I see. Didn't he say he was running it under 09 hot water to get rid of the LSD? 10 A No, he ran it under hot water so that it would 11 loosen it up and run it and that just happens to have 12 washed off most of the LSD. This isn't the first time 13 that people have accused the Church of Scientology of 14 doing this trick. 15 MS. KOBRIN: There's no question pending, 16 Mr. Henson. 17 THE WITNESS: I notice where they're 18 sensitive. 19 TIME: 12:04. 20 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): By the way -- 21 excuse me, I just want to look at some of the prior 22 exhibits for a second. 23 A Sure. 24 Q Take a look at Exhibit 9. Did you mark -- put 25 down -- 26 A No, I didn't mark them. 0104 01 Q The one dated April 8th, 1995. 02 A Big block -- this one? 03 Q Yeah. 04 A April -- 05 Q 8th. 06 A Okay. 07 Q You see -- this is a posting from you. It says, 08 "Subject: Re: LSD." This is dated April 8th, 1995. 09 What does LSD have to do with this posting? 10 A Haven't got a clue. That's what's called topic 11 drift, and what often happens is that people will make 12 a cascade of things replying to other people's 13 messages without changing the subject line on it, and 14 eventually the subject line has nothing whatsoever to 15 do with whatever's in the posting. 16 Q I see. 17 A Happens all the time. Sorry. 18 Q No need to be sorry. 19 A It's very confusing. The net is confusing 20 enough to us who are on it. For people trying to deal 21 with it outside of it, it's really tough. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: All right. Number 176. 23 Here you go. 24 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 14 was 25 marked for identification by the 26 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 0105 01 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. This is a 02 posting dated August 13, '95 from H.K. Henson, subject 03 "International noose is loosening fast on Scn." 04 Whatever that means. And it quotes a statement from 05 Andrew Milne, M-I-L-N-E, and then there's a response 06 by Mr. Henson and then there's another statement from 07 Mr. Milne, and then there's another response from 08 Mr. Henson. And you state here "I have never signed 09 any silly billion year contracts, or agreed to keep 10 the OT tripe secret." You were aware that people who 11 had been in the church would sign confidentiality 12 agreements, were you not? 13 A Well, again, I can't swear to this being a 14 posting of mine, but -- 15 Q Putting that aside you were aware of that? 16 A Putting that -- 17 Q Yes or no. 18 A Putting that aside, I have -- I have no direct 19 knowledge of that, but it is -- I suppose it would be 20 considered to be general knowledge that people in the 21 church sign all sorts of strange stuff. 22 Q Well, you're aware that Erlich signed a 23 confidentiality agreement, aren't you? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you ever read the decisions of Judge Whyte in 26 the Erlich case? 0106 01 A No. 02 Q No? You received them, right? 03 A In the Erlich case? 04 Q Yes. 05 A I don't think so. 06 Q Did you ever look at the preliminary injunction 07 that Judge Whyte issued in the Erlich case? 08 A No. 09 Q You went down to the court and obtained copies 10 of the documents from the Erlich case, right? 11 A Right. 12 Q And Erlich sent you a copy of the decision, 13 didn't he? 14 A No. 15 Q He didn't? 16 A No. 17 Q You're sure of that? 18 A I don't think so, unless he posted it to the 19 net. 20 Q All right. And I forgot what -- whether you 21 answered this or not. Weren't you aware that Erlich 22 signed a confidentiality agreement? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Weren't you aware that Lerma signed a 25 confidentiality agreement? 26 A I haven't the slightest notion. That's well 0107 01 outside of my knowledge of this. 02 Q You didn't follow those cases very closely? 03 A There's -- you're dealing with stuff that's the 04 size of several phone books thick. I don't know what 05 they did, and besides that, it's stuff that happened, 06 you know, decades ago. 07 Q I'm just asking you whether you followed those 08 cases very closely or not. 09 A It is alleged, anyway -- at least I think I have 10 heard that it was alleged that they signed 11 confidentiality agreements, but as to whether this is 12 actually true or not, I haven't the foggiest notion. 13 Q But you've made a point on several occasions 14 that you haven't signed a confidentiality agreement in 15 clear distinction to others; haven't you? 16 A I don't know clear distinction to others, but I 17 certainly have never signed anything with the Church 18 of Scientology. 19 Q Right. And you've indicated that you've 20 emphasized that point in distinguishing yourself from 21 others, haven't you or not? 22 A I don't know that it distinguishes me from 23 others, but it certainly is true. 24 Q In fact, you've made that distinction in this 25 very case, haven't you? 26 A I don't think it's a distinction, it's just a 0108 01 statement of fact. 02 Q Okay. 03 A It's true, I think, for most of the people who 04 are on a.r.s. 05 Q What's true with most of the people on a.r.s.? 06 A There are certainly very few people on a.r.s. 07 who would have ever had an opportunity to sign 08 anything with the Church of Scientology because most 09 of them are not former members. 10 Q But the former members would have signed a 11 confidentiality agreement if they'd been -- 12 A I haven't got any idea. 13 Q You don't have any idea about that? 14 A Well, the Church of Scientology counts anybody 15 as a member who's ever been to any one of their 16 things, and I'm sure that most of those people haven't 17 signed any agreements. 18 Q But why would you have emphasized that you never 19 agreed to it if you had no idea whether other people 20 had or not? 21 A I don't understand where this is going. Maybe 22 if you can explain what you're after, maybe I can just 23 answer it. 24 Q Are you not aware that Scientologists who 25 participate in the upper-level services are required 26 to sign a confidentiality agreement? 0109 01 A This has been alleged. I don't know it for a 02 fact. 03 Q But you know that it is asserted that that is 04 true? 05 A It is alleged anyway. 06 Q Yes. Okay. Now, have you ever read the Vien 07 decision? 08 A No. 09 Q You made a comment here about the Vien decision, 10 didn't you? 11 A I've read comment about the Vien decision. 12 Q What comment have you read about the Vien 13 decision? 14 A Perhaps one or two paragraphs about it. 15 Q Written by whom? 16 A No idea. 17 Q Where did you read it? 18 A A.r.s., more likely than anything else. Far 19 more likely than anything else. 20 Q You're aware, are you not, that the court in the 21 Vien case enjoined Edith Vien from using the 22 upper-level materials as trade secrets? 23 A I do not remember. I remember what was alleged 24 in the case from the standpoint that somebody posted 25 that, but I don't remember what the -- what the 26 injunctions were. I also remember having read that 0110 01 the case probably would have been reversed on appeal 02 if she'd had the money to do it. 03 Q I see. That's somebody's opinion, right? 04 A Well, it's as much an opinion as all the rest of 05 the tripe I've read on that topic. 06 Q What's not opinion is the fact that the district 07 court entered an injunction against her. 08 A So what. 09 Q You're aware of that -- 10 A They entered an injunction against me that I 11 don't think is justified either. 12 Q But you're aware that a court entered an 13 injunction against Edith Vien, are you? Yes or no. 14 A I'm aware -- I'm aware that that is -- that that 15 is the case, but I haven't the slightest idea what the 16 injunction forbid her to do. 17 Q Are you aware that the court awarded damages 18 against Edith Vien? 19 A No. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 21 (Discussion held off the record.) 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I need number 170. 23 Off the record for one second. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You want to go off the 25 record? 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah, just for one second. 0111 01 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is 12 -- 02 12:14 and we're going off the record. Clear to talk. 03 (Discussion held off the record.) 04 (Lunch recess taken from 12:15 to 1:15.) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 0112 01 AFTERNOON SESSION 02 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is 1:22. 03 We're back on the record. Go ahead, please. 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: We can mark this as 05 Exhibit l5. 06 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 15 was 07 marked for identification by the 08 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 09 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Exhibit l5 is a 10 posting to a.r.s. It's dated from H.K. Henson, 11 Subject: Arnie -- "FLASH" in all caps -- 12 A Capitals. 13 Q "Arnie Lerma," L-E-R-M-A, "raided" and it states 14 very simply "Just got word, not much details, Clams," 15 with a capital C, "are inside Arnie's house with 16 another federal seizure warrant." Signed Keith 17 Henson. 18 A Well, again, I can't state that this is 19 unequivocally a piece of my work. I don't know that 20 every byte in it is the correct one, but I would 21 suspect that this -- it certainly seems on the face of 22 it reasonable, and to be really truthful about it, I 23 don't remember how I got the details of that. That 24 was 11:00 o'clock on Sunday, according to this thing. 25 If this is an accurate representation of that, I don't 26 know. Somebody may have called me, and if it was, I 0113 01 do not remember who did it. 02 Q Does this refresh your recollection at all that 03 you may have learned about this while the search and 04 seizure was actually ongoing? 05 A I might have. However, I do remember that when 06 I talked to Arnie, which may have been sometime around 07 this time, by that point, they had -- they had left, I 08 think. 09 Q Okay. 10 A I could be wrong on that. I don't know. This 11 is East Coast time. It was also an interesting thing 12 that at the time Helena was actually participating in 13 this raid, she was also posting from her account on 14 Netcom. 15 Q Now, you don't recall whether anybody else might 16 have called you about this action as it was going on? 17 A My -- my best recollection -- 18 Q Excuse me. 19 A I simply do not remember how I got this word. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Thinking back, it probably was a phone call. 22 Q Okay. That you received? 23 A Yeah. That's my -- 24 Q And probably from Arnie or probably from 25 somebody else? 26 A I'm sure it wasn't from Arnie because he was 0114 01 right smack in the middle of getting raided, but I 02 don't know who -- I don't know who gave it -- who 03 would have called me. The news spread very quickly. 04 Q Amongst whom? 05 A Well, I put it on the net, and, you know, ten 06 minutes later any one of a hundred thousand people 07 knew about it. 08 Q Right. Did you have any discussions or 09 communications with Mr. Lerma after the search and 10 seizure about providing him with any kind of support 11 or assistance in his litigation? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. What about with Mr. Wollersheim or Mr. 14 Penny after the lawsuit was begun? 15 A I never talked to either one of those. I have 16 donated money to FactNet -- I have donated money to 17 FactNet, spelled with the N capitalized. 18 Q Did you ever communicate with Mr. Wollersheim or 19 Mr. Penny by e-mail? 20 A I might have, but I do not remember having done 21 so. I've never talked to either one of those 22 individuals by phone. 23 Q Unless you did by e-mail, would you have 24 communicated with them by any other method? 25 A Oh, certainly, you know, in -- many other 26 methods, but I don't believe that I've ever 0115 01 communicated with either one of them. 02 Q It may be a problem with your answer, it may be 03 a problem with my question. Let me just be clear. 04 You don't remember ever communicating with either of 05 them in any fashion whatsoever? 06 A They've posted stuff to the net. That's a 07 one-way communication. I don't believe that I've ever 08 written e-mail to them, and I'm almost certain that 09 I've never talked to them on the phone, at least not 10 knowingly. 11 Q Right. And my understanding, from what you've 12 said, is you obviously have never met them. 13 A Yes. That's certainly true. I've met very few 14 of the people. 15 Q Who have you met who's on a.r.s.? 16 A For example, I met Grady Ward at that picket and 17 the second time I saw Grady Ward was at TRO hearing 18 and, let's see, I've met Dennis Erlich -- some of the 19 people, quite a few of the people in the Bay Area that 20 showed up for pickets or for things like that, I've 21 met some of the people in the Phoenix area because I 22 was down there for something else and there was a 23 picket last September. So I met a bunch of those 24 people. 25 Q Okay. At the time of the search and seizure at 26 Mr. Lerma's house, were you aware that anybody other 0116 01 than Mr. Lerma had posted OT materials on the 02 internet? 03 A I'm aware that Dennis Erlich had been accused of 04 that. I never saw any of that 'cause that all stopped 05 before I got involved or close to that. 06 Q Were you aware that Grady Ward had? 07 A No. 08 Q Did you believe he had? 09 A I couldn't even form an opinion on that. I 10 don't think so. 11 Q Right. Did you think that Grady Ward might be 12 the subject of a similar search and seizure as 13 Mr. Lerma had been? 14 A Because of his outspokenness against the -- 15 against the Church of Scientology, I would rather 16 imagine. I would imagine that that was speculated on, 17 and I don't know whether I did any of the speculating 18 or not. 19 Q But the only people who had been subjected to a 20 search and seizure were people who actually had 21 posted, right? Posted materials, not people who had 22 merely criticized; isn't that right? 23 A That's asking me for speculation that I don't 24 really know. 25 Q Okay. Well, you knew the only people who had 26 been subjected to a search and seizure at the time had 0117 01 been Mr. Erlich and Mr. Lerma, right? 02 A I don't really know. I don't remember how the 03 FactNet -- what timing the FactNet raid hit. I don't 04 remember whether that was before or after Arnie Lerma. 05 Q It was after. It was several weeks after. 06 A Well, you have more of a handle on the time line 07 than I do. 08 Q Is there any reason why you would have 09 speculated that Mr. Ward would be subjected to a 10 search and seizure? 11 A Well, he'd been trolling something fierce for a 12 long time. 13 Q You knew it was a troll? 14 A How can any -- how can I know it's a troll? It 15 looked like a troll to me, but as far as I knew, it 16 was a troll. 17 Q You were aware that he was suggesting that he 18 may have connections with SCAMIZDAT; were you not? 19 A Well, anybody who read a.r.s. and didn't just 20 throw away all of his postings would be somewhat aware 21 of that. 22 Q But you assumed it was a troll rather than he 23 really did have some connection with SCAMIZDAT? 24 A Seemed awful likely to me. 25 Q Why would that be? 26 A Well, because the people who really are doing 0118 01 that kind of thing aren't going to be twitting them 02 that hard. 03 Q Mr. Lerma did. 04 A Lerma was pretty silly. But then so was I. 05 Q Ultimately so was Mr. Ward, wasn't he? 06 A Oh, I don't know. I think this is -- this is 07 being enjoyed by all parties. 08 Q Oh, really? 09 A At least on this side of -- 10 Q You're enjoying it? 11 A Of course. 12 Q You sort of think this is like recreation, don't 13 you? 14 A Well, it comes off the recreation budget, if 15 that's what you mean. 16 Q It's fun for you. 17 A Right. 18 Q Okay. 19 A It's also training. 20 Q Training for what? 21 A Ahh, for the big action. 22 Q Tell me about that. 23 A Oh, the big action is going to come when some 24 major government finally decides to really sit down 25 hard on free speech on the net. 26 Q Uh-huh. Has that happened yet? 0119 01 A Oh, yes. 02 Q And this is -- getting involved in this 03 litigation you view as training for future actions 04 with the government? 05 A I've said so in postings. Many people have said 06 this in postings. This is not new information. 07 Q So you welcome this litigation as a training 08 exercise? 09 A I didn't really expect it to happen, but since 10 it did happen, I decided I'd enjoy it. 11 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 12 Kobrin.) 13 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): So when and if 14 the government or a government, I think is the way you 15 put it, is that right, begins censoring the net, what 16 big action do you foresee as coming in the future? 17 A I haven't got an idea. 18 Q By action, do you mean lawsuit or do you mean 19 tactics to -- 20 A I don't know what form it will take. Probably 21 many different forms. I have been involved in 22 defending constitutional rights for a long time. I 23 defeated a United Nations treaty on this particular 24 matter, if you happen to be aware of that. I've 25 testified before congress on this matter. 26 Q On which matter have you testified before 0120 01 congress? 02 A The Moon treaty. 03 Q Moon meaning the thing up in the sky? 04 A Yes. 05 Q Okay. 06 A Do you know of Dickstein, Shapiro & Lauren? 07 Q Do I know them? 08 A The law firm. 09 Q They're a law firm? 10 A Yeah, those are the people who ran that campaign 11 for me. 12 Q Okay. 13 A In fact, Mr. Liebertner. [Ratiner] 14 Q Okay. Now -- 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see number 209, 16 please. 17 TIME: 1:36 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mark that. 19 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 16 20 marked for identification by the 21 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 22 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a posting 23 dated 19 September '95 to a.r.s. from H.K. Henson, 24 "Subject: Scientology is DUMB," D-U-M-B in all caps, 25 and it's a response to a posting by somebody named 26 Richard Smol, S-M-O-L, who apparently is from 0121 01 Cleveland. Do you know Richard Smol? 02 A No. 03 Q Have you ever communicated by e-mail with him? 04 A Not to my knowledge. 05 Q So you just may have on this occasion or maybe 06 one or two others responded to something he may have 07 posted and that would be the extent of your 08 relationship with him? 09 A As far as I know. 10 Q Yeah. Okay. And in this dialogue Mr. Smol had 11 stated that Scientology is definitely not a religion, 12 and you took a somewhat different point of view, 13 didn't you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you took the point of view that you believed 16 that the top CoS people are true believers; is that 17 right? 18 A Right, in sense that Eric Hoffer wrote the book 19 The True Believers. 20 Q Okay. But in that sense, it's your view that 21 the top people in the Church of Scientology do believe 22 in the writings of Mr. Hubbard; is that right? 23 A Well, writings of Mr. Hubbard, if you will -- 24 not just the writings, but the entire fantasy that he 25 developed. Including the space aliens and the Marcabs 26 and all the rest of the thing. DC8, gorilla goyles, [goals] 0122 01 airplane goyles. Wow. 02 Q I take it by your comment "wow" that you don't 03 believe in them? 04 A I don't believe in the Easter bunny either. 05 Q And, by the way, do you believe in the 06 resurrection? 07 A I'm sorry, I don't. I'm afraid that since the 08 word is mentioned in here you people probably should 09 be aware of my work in the field of memetics, which is 10 essentially a study of the -- of replicating 11 information patterns that infest human beings the way 12 computer viruses infest computers, and I've written 13 reams of material on this, of which I provided 14 pointers in the deposition -- in the response to 15 produce documents. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: 248. 17 THE WITNESS: By the way, if this ever 18 comes to trial, I will bring -- I will call myself as 19 an expert witness in this particular field. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, I'm glad we have 21 advanced notice of that. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, you're certainly 23 welcome. Try to find another one. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: There. You can mark that. 25 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 17 was 26 marked for identification by the 0123 01 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 02 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a posting 03 dated 26th of September 1995 from H.K. Henson to the 04 news group a.r.s., subject: Whyte, W-H-Y-T-E, rules 05 on Erlich, E-R-L-I-C-H, and it's again a posting 06 from -- Mr. Erlich is quoted and then there's a 07 response from Mr. Henson. And Mr. Erlich's posting 08 states that "Judge Whyte has ruled on the issues 09 relating to me"..."and has vacated the writ of 10 seizure." It goes on to say, "The ruling is 42 pages 11 long. The scienos," spelled S-I -- S-C-I, excuse me, 12 E-N-O-S, "will undoubtedly appeal it. Further details 13 as available." And then there's a response. "Way to 14 go, Dennis. Hot dog." I presume we can" all -- "we 15 can see all of these when they are scanned in. I live 16 in San Jose and have access to a scanner. Should I go 17 get a set from the court?" Signed Keith Henson. Did 18 you go to the court to get a set? 19 A Well, again, I can't be absolutely certain that 20 this actually is one of my postings, but I don't 21 remember having gone to the court. So if indeed the 22 stuff ever got scanned in and posted to the net, I 23 don't believe that I did this. 24 Q Okay. 25 A I could be wrong about that, but I would say -- 26 well, actually, before I scanned in some of Grady's 0124 01 original filings, I didn't scan any 02 Scientology-related material at all until I got sued, 03 and then I loaded up the software to make my scanner 04 run, which I'd acquired in January, I think it was, of 05 this year and -- 06 Q You didn't have a scanner before January of this 07 year? 08 A I had access to a scanner. I have access to a 09 3,000 page an hour scanner, but I never wound up using 10 it. 11 Q So you didn't scan in any of the materials from 12 the Erlich case? 13 A No. The stuff that I -- that may be represented 14 by some of this, this -- one of the exhibits, I 15 remember typing some material in, whether it's the 16 same as this material or not, but in the early days of 17 the Erlich thing, I typed in some of them. I remember 18 typing in some material from the court cases. 19 Q Right. Typing in some of the pleadings, you 20 mean? 21 A Some of the exhibits, if I remember correctly. 22 Q Okay. Because you didn't get access to any of 23 the upper-level materials from the court though, did 24 you? 25 A I've never seen any upper-level materials in 26 hard copy. 0125 01 Q Okay. Now, when you said you scanned in some of 02 the materials that Grady -- from Grady's case, what 03 were you referring to? 04 A His -- the three-inch pile of paper that Grady 05 was served with originally. 06 Q Oh, okay. 07 A When Grady was down here for that, he had two 08 sets of it, and so he left me with -- left one set 09 with me, and I ran it through the scanner. Never 10 actually ran it through the OCR stage on the thing. 11 It's on a CD ROM. 12 Q Okay. And after you scanned it, what did you do 13 with it? 14 A I didn't do anything with it. I couldn't get 15 the CD ROM to read at home. And it's 24 megabytes, I 16 think. Something like that. 17 Q Okay. Now, in this posting Dennis Erlich talks 18 about a 42-page ruling by Judge Whyte. Did you ever 19 go down and take a look at what that ruling was? 20 TIME: 1:44 21 A I think that somebody else got that ruling and 22 scanned it in, and I may have skimmed through it at 23 some time, but it was too dense for me to read it in 24 detail. 25 Q Did you notice that Mr. Erlich neglected to note 26 on his posting that he had been enjoined by Judge 0126 01 Whyte from copying the materials except for very 02 limited fair use? 03 A No. 04 Q Did you notice that Judge Whyte had held that 05 the materials were properly copyrighted by RTC and RTC 06 did have a right to enforce its copyrights in those 07 materials? 08 A I will accept that from you, but I don't think I 09 knew that necessarily. Judge Whyte's rulings tend to 10 be pretty -- pretty detailed. 11 Q I would agree. Did you ever use a scanner -- 12 I'm sorry, I think you've answered this. If you have, 13 forgive me. Did you ever use the scanner to scan in 14 any of RTC's proprietary materials? 15 A No. Unless they were contained in court filings 16 that -- that RTC filed or something like that. If 17 that's -- 18 Q Did you ever scan in NOTs 34? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever scan in OT VII? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever scan in any NOTs materials? 23 A No, no NOTs material at all. 24 Q NOTs, by the way, should be N-O -- 25 A I told her. 26 Q Thank you. When did you scan in -- I'm sorry, 0127 01 strike that. 02 I believe you've previously testified that 03 you did post NOTs 34 to the internet, and I believe it 04 was a.r.s. on two occasions in the last six to eight 05 weeks; is that correct? 06 A I've posted something. Whether it was NOTs 34 07 or not is hard to say. 08 Q Well, is what you believe to be NOTs 34; is that 09 right? 10 A What purported on the face of it to be NOTs 34. 11 Q Thank you. 12 A Would you like to know how I did that? 13 Q How you did it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q First let me ask you: Where did you get it 16 from? 17 A Netcom. 18 Q Where on Netcom? 19 A The file user spool news/ 20 alt.religion.scientology. And those should all be [/usr/spool/news/alt/religion/scientology] 21 separated by marks between them. ^[slash] 22 Q Now, you downloaded it, right? 23 A No. 24 Q Well, you have it on some disks of yours, don't 25 you? 26 A Well, I have it on my disk quota at Netcom. I 0128 01 never actually downloaded it. 02 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 03 Kobrin.) 04 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Is it still 05 there? 06 A Yes. 07 Q Okay. 08 A It's in my private directory, so it's not 09 accessible to anybody else. 10 Q Was that -- when the disks you produced -- 11 A It's on there. 12 Q It's on there. 13 A Yeah, I copied it. 14 Q It copied it from there onto the disk that you 15 produced? 16 A Onto the disk, but I copied it directly onto 17 those disks, there's not a copy on my machine at home. 18 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 19 Kobrin.) 20 TIME: 1:50. 21 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): So these files on 22 Netcom -- in other words, you control those files, 23 right? It's not like somebody else -- 24 A You mean can I delete them? 25 Q Yeah. 26 A Yeah. In fact -- 0129 01 Q No one else can go into it and access it without 02 your approval or authorization or assistance? 03 A Oh, no, other people can go in there and do it. 04 Q How would they do that? 05 A Anybody with root privileges, which probably is, 06 as a guess, 50 people or a hundred people on Netcom, 07 any of their syst admins can do it. 08 Q At Netcom, you mean? 09 A Yes. People who have root privileges on Netcom. 10 Anybody else can't get into my directory, it's not 11 accessible. 12 Q Right. Okay. Now, after you posted NOTs 34 -- 13 A Well, I should tell you how I did that. 14 Q Okay. Tell me how -- 15 A Okay. To find the things, in the first place, I 16 looked at this TRO from Grady -- about Grady and I 17 wondered what on earth this fuss was all about, so I 18 ran a program called grep, which is short for get 19 regular expression, and on the file that I was talking 20 about that ends up in Scientology, and what it does is 21 it threads -- it goes through all the files in that 22 directory, of which there was thousands at that time, 23 and, in fact, the total number of files that's -- 24 that's been in that directory is in the -- 155,000 25 some odd files in that directory, and it found among 26 that, looking for the -- looking for NOTs, it 0130 01 found a -- I don't know, 20, 30 some odd number like 02 that of them with that -- with that word in it. And 03 so I went looking at a few of those files to see what 04 on earth it was about, and the first one I ran across 05 was NOTs 34, which immediately sprung out as being 06 something 07 interesting. So what I did is I sucked that file into 08 an editor by asking VI to pull it in, and then deleted 09 stuff on either side of it and pulling up that copy. 10 I might add that I found it in two different -- I 11 found it in what I guess was one of the SCAMIZDATs, 12 but interestingly enough, the SCAMIZDATs that I found 13 it in or whatever they were were cut in different 14 places, which is indicative to me that either one 15 person is trying to simulate more than one person out 16 there or there really are several different people who 17 aren't even talking to each other who were posting -- 18 reposting those because of the old SKAMIZDATs. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Anyway, I cut this piece out and wrote the stuff 21 that I had on it and then posted it to a.r.s. 22 Q Okay. And -- 23 A Actually, no, sorry, I didn't do it that way. I 24 download -- I actually -- after I'd cut that piece of 25 the thing out, I printed it. I don't -- I guess I -- 26 I guess I did download that file. I edited it on -- 0131 01 on Netcom with VI. I then downloaded that file and 02 printed it, and that's the date on it is the 26th, I 03 believe, and that's the one that I took to Judge Whyte 04 and presented to him. 05 Q Now -- so you did download it. Is it still 06 where you downloaded it or -- 07 A Which? NOTs 34 or my -- 08 Q Yeah. 09 A -- or my inclusion of it? 10 Q Either one. 11 A Yeah, I've got a copy of it on my machine at 12 home. 13 Q Okay. 14 A It's an inclusion in the letter -- in the letter 15 to Judge Whyte. 16 Q Right. So you have the letter to Judge Whyte in 17 your machine at home and inside that is your 18 inclusion? 19 A Right. The quoting -- the fair use quoting of 20 NOTs 34. I was effectively reporting to Judge Whyte 21 that some of the stuff looked criminal to me. 22 Q Following your posting, did you receive a cease 23 and desist letter from Ms. Kobrin? 24 A I received a -- I received some piece of e-mail 25 from the address hkk@netcom.com. I haven't got any 26 idea who's behind that. 0132 01 Q Did you -- 02 A Did I respond? 03 Q In turn, did you post that to the internet? 04 A Of course. I consider it to be abusive e-mail. 05 Q Uh-huh. And did you consider this to also 06 increase your status as an SP? 07 A No, it wasn't adequate. My status was -- I 08 suppose it would have given me a clam cluster, but 09 I -- you know, that's a minor matter. You don't go up 10 a full grade unless you really -- really get the 11 requisite kind of things, like in the case of SP5, you 12 have to either be fair gamed by them or have them sue 13 you. 14 Q Okay. 15 A I did not consider that to be legally binding 16 notice. 17 Q You didn't consider it to be a legally binding 18 notice? 19 A Using e-mail for the delivery of legal papers 20 is -- unless they're PGP signed and it's agreed upon 21 that this will be done, I don't believe to be an 22 adequate notification. 23 Q Did you have doubts that the communication was, 24 in fact, from Ms. Kobrin? 25 A Well, considering that Ms. Cobrin's account has 26 been used at times when she was clearly somewhere 0133 01 else, I have no idea who actually wrote it. 02 Q Did you have any doubt that RTC, in fact, did 03 intend to convey to you the message that you should 04 cease and desist from posting NOTs 34 to the 05 internet? You're under oath here. 06 A I suppose I could have drawn that conclusion. 07 Q Okay. When you did this letter to Judge Whyte, 08 did you give a hard copy of that letter to anybody 09 else? 10 A I've been thinking about that, and I'm sorry, 11 but I can't answer that with any degree of 12 reliability. It's possible that I gave away some 13 copies of that, but I don't remember if I did who they 14 went to. 15 Q Okay. Do you retain a hard copy of the letter 16 with -- 17 A One. 18 Q Other than the inclusion of the letter, do you 19 retain a hard copy of NOTs 34? 20 A I don't -- yes, in the stuff that I have asked 21 permission to delete. 22 Q To delete? 23 A When I pulled the two pieces of -- that had NOTs 24 34 over in them into my directory of Netcom, I left 25 them there, and when I went looking for stuff to 26 satisfy the request to produce documents, I found them 0134 01 there, and I had meant to delete them at the time, but 02 I apparently hadn't done it. So they're still sitting 03 on my spool -- on my disk quota at Netcom. 04 Q Okay. In terms of whether you have a hard copy, 05 that is, a printed-out copy -- 06 A No. Nothing with NOTs 34 alone on it. 07 Q Just the letter with the inclusion? 08 A Just the letter with the inclusion. 09 Q Did you receive any communication from Netcom 10 following the posting of NOTs 34? 11 A I didn't receive any. That doesn't mean they 12 didn't send it, but it never wound up in my mailbox. 13 Q Do you have reason to believe they sent it, but 14 you didn't receive it? 15 A No. My mail to Netcom usually comes to support, 16 and I've forgotten the woman -- Margaret, who cancels 17 accounts that have been used for cancelling -- 18 illegally cancelling other postings. That usually 19 comes through pretty reliably. 20 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 21 Kobrin.) 22 TIME: 2:00. 23 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Now, you did make 24 a posting, did you not, in which you stated "I am 25 publicly seeking more NOTs material, stolen or not." 26 Do you recall that posting? 0135 01 A I think you'd have to read more of the -- of the 02 context of that. Can you read on another sentence or 03 two? 04 Q Yeah. "I'm also publicly seeking more NOTs 05 material, stolen or not, which describes criminal 06 activities. It is my intent to post and discuss any 07 parts of NOTs which amount to manuals for criminal 08 activities." Do you recall making that posting? 09 A It sure sounds like something I would have 10 posted on there. It may not be every character in 11 place, but I think I would claim that anyway. 12 Q Mr. Henson, we're talking about something that 13 was done a few weeks ago. Are you saying you don't 14 remember that you posted that? 15 A I can't remember. If I -- I couldn't -- no, no, 16 no. I posted something which was very similar to that 17 or maybe even that, but the thing I'm getting at is 18 that without my hard copy and comparing it character 19 for character, I cannot guarantee that what you have 20 there is exactly my posting. 21 Q Do you have your hard copy? 22 A No, not with me, but I will say that that 23 certainly sounds very close. It would not surprise me 24 a bit for that to be compared character for character 25 and to be correct. As I pointed out to the judge, I'm 26 not interested in any of the NOTs which does not 0136 01 discuss criminal activity. 02 Q Right. I understand that that's your position. 03 Did you receive any materials whatsoever from any 04 source whatsoever in response to that request? 05 A I received no material from any source 06 whatsoever in any form, neither electronically nor 07 hard copy. Sorry. 08 Q Don't have to apologize to me. I'm quite happy 09 that that's true. 10 A Well, it wasn't for lack of trying. 11 Q Do you plan on trying again? 12 A Not as long as I'm under the -- under the 13 injunction. 14 Q Were it not for the injunction, would you try 15 again? 16 A Well, it might be hard to avoid it. I 17 understand that all of NOTs got posted sometime over 18 the weekend and somebody with a stronger stomach than 19 I seems to have read through the whole thing and they 20 sent me a note saying that there were three of them 21 which seem to discuss illegal practice of medicine 22 without a license. 26 was one of them, but I don't 23 remember the other two numbers. 24 Q Who sent you this notice? 25 A I don't remember. 26 Q Mr. Henson, this is a notice you would have 0137 01 received in the last day. 02 A Right. I don't remember who sent it to me. 03 Q Do you have it? 04 A I don't believe I deleted it, so I -- if you 05 want the name of the person who did it, I can probably 06 find it. 07 Q Could you -- 08 A On the other hand, it is private e-mail, so it 09 falls under the ECPA, but I tell you what, I will tell 10 you -- I will tell you what numbers they were if you 11 want to look them up. 12 Q No, I want to know the name of the person who 13 sent you that notice. 14 A I'm not going to give it to you, not unless you 15 get a court order to do it because it's electronic 16 communications privacy material. 17 Q Electronic communications are no more private 18 than postal communications and you're still required 19 to identify in a lawsuit who you received commun -- 20 relevant communications from. 21 A I don't believe that that's the case. Besides 22 that, why is this relevant? 23 Q Because it may indicate who is working to 24 illegally post this material, and perhaps it may 25 indicate who's working with you. 26 A This happened -- the person who sent this -- 0138 01 Q It's clearly a suggestion to you as to what 02 other materials you might want to post, according to 03 your alleged position. 04 A Well, whoever did it at least waited until it 05 had been posted to the internet. Every single 06 solitary bit of it and some considerable hours beyond 07 that giving them time to read that tripe and analyze 08 it sufficiently to decide that this was -- that this 09 was something which applied to my case. 10 Q Well, until we can get a court order, I'm asking 11 you not to destroy that communication or any 12 identification of who sent it to you. 13 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 14 Kobrin.) 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Number 488. 16 TIME: 2:05. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mark that. 18 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 18 was 19 marked for identification by the 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Take a look at that. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, again, I can't be -- 23 well, it's obviously not -- not the full text of my 24 posting 'cause, of course, it has the included thing 25 clipped out of the middle of it. 26 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Meaning the NOTs 0139 01 34 material? 02 A Right. 03 Q Right. 04 A It also has the thing of blowing BT's clipped 05 out of it. Blacked out. I forget whether BT's are in 06 capitals or not. 07 Q Okay. Putting that aside and understanding that 08 you're not -- you are not vouching that every 09 character in here is precisely the same character as 10 on your original, although we may ask for comparison 11 if there's really a necessity to do that, this is -- 12 this appears pretty much to be what you've recently 13 posted on a.r.s., does it not? 14 A Well, it certainly would be no problem for Judge 15 Whyte to verify it, since he has a copy of it. 16 Q But I'm asking you to verify that this appears 17 to be what you sent. Is that right? 18 A For purposes of discussion, I would tentatively 19 allow you to consider it if you want to discuss parts 20 of it. 21 Q Good. Thank you. 22 A Subject, of course, to verification that it 23 matches Judge Whyte's copy. 24 Q That's fine. I think we can take it subject to 25 that. 26 Take a look at the last page. You see 0140 01 where you say, "It is my position that the public 02 interest in this matter should override all commercial 03 copyright concerns"? 04 A Uh-huh. 05 Q And then you go on to say, "The entire corpus of 06 material the Church of Scientology is trying to keep 07 from public view is so at odds with what cult victims 08 are told when they are suckered into it as to 09 constitute fraud thinly disguised as religion." 10 You're not stating here, Mr. Henson, that the entire 11 corpus of RTC materials constitutes fraud and thereby 12 is subject to being posted by you pursuant to your -- 13 your intention to disclose fraud and criminal 14 activity? 15 A I can see how you might read it that way. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I'm not sure that was my intention. 18 Q You're not sure it was your intention. 19 A Well, actually, I'm fairly sure it wasn't my 20 intention because a lot of that stuff is just boring 21 rather than being criminal. 22 Q Well, you go beyond criminal. You also talk 23 about fraudulent. 24 A Have you read any of that stuff? 25 Q That's not the point, Mr. Henson. 26 A Well, I've been exposed to an adequate amount of 0141 01 the stuff over the last year to form a pretty fair 02 opinion of it. 03 Q And your fair opinion of it is that most of it, 04 if not all of it, is fraudulent; is that not right? 05 A Goyles, DC8's -- 06 Q Just answer the question, sir. 07 A Well, let's put it this way: I would 08 certainly -- I would certainly bow before Judge 09 Whyte's view of it if he looked through it. It's -- 10 it is -- 11 Q I'm not asking you to bow or not to bow, I'm 12 asking -- 13 A Is it my opinion this it's fraudulent material? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Taken as a whole, yes. 16 Q Thank you. By the way, do you think the Bible 17 is fraudulent? 18 A Is that a relevant sort of a question? 19 Q Yes. Now you can answer it. I think it's 20 relevant. 21 A That's going to take a long digression. 22 Q I just want a yes or no. 23 A I can't answer it yes or no. For example, the 24 gospel according to Timothy -- is it Timothy? Steven. 25 There's a lot of material that was -- they picked and 26 chose among the stuff largely on literary merit or 0142 01 what got included and didn't get included in 02 the Bible. Religious mimesets are things which are -- [meme sets] 03 which evolve normally, and the Bible has clearly been 04 something which has had a lot of the rough edges filed 05 off of it in the passage of time. 06 Q You consider Scientology also to be a religious 07 mimeset, don't you? [meme set] 08 A Oh, yes. Among other things. 09 TIME: 2:12. 10 Q Now, when you posted the letter from Helena 11 Kobrin to the internet, you also posted with it her 12 running response to it paragraph by paragraph, didn't 13 you? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q All right. 16 A Whether what you have is that exact, I don't 17 know. 18 Q I understand that. Now, in responding to it, 19 you treated the letter as having come from Ms. Kobrin, 20 didn't you? 21 A In the -- well, I knew it came from somebody at 22 HKK. 23 Q But you addressed your response to "Dear 24 Mrs. Kobrin," didn't you? 25 A If it says so on the letter, I probably did. 26 Q Okay. 0143 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me have 49. 02 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): At the end of 03 that posting where you responded paragraph by 04 paragraph to Helena Kobrin, you once again solicited 05 NOTs materials, legal -- legally or illegally 06 obtained, for the same purposes you previously had 07 solicited them, did you not? 08 A Right, for the exposure of criminal activity. 09 Q Yes. Well, it went further than that didn't 10 it? It also said, "or to show the fraudulent bait and 11 switch nature of Scientology," didn't it? 12 A I don't know. You've got it in front of you. 13 Q No, I'm asking you what your memory of something 14 you posted just a few weeks ago is. Do you remember 15 saying that? 16 A Could have been. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Again, it shouldn't be something which is 19 subject to any real argument because I gave Judge 20 Whyte a copy of it. 21 Q I'm not asking you for an argument, I'm just 22 asking you to identify what you said. 23 A Well, anything that's been out of my hands and 24 isn't PGP signed or something similar, I am not going 25 to count on without a character by character 26 comparison. 0144 01 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 19 was 02 marked for identification by the 03 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: Want to take a look at 05 that. 06 (Discussion held off the record.) 07 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Exhibit Number 19 08 is response, I suppose, to a letter -- an e-mail from 09 Helena K. Kobrin at RTC from H.K. Henson. Without 10 verify -- vouching for a character by character 11 analysis, does this appear to be the document we were 12 just discussing in which you responded to Ms. Kobrin's 13 letter? 14 A It might be. 15 Q Does it appear to you to be? 16 A It probably even is. 17 Q Thank you. 18 A It shouldn't be a problem, as I say. Judge 19 Whyte's got a copy. It says right on the top of it cc 20 to Judge Whyte. 21 Q If you take a look at the last page -- 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q -- see the paragraph that starts, "Well, 24 Helena" -- 25 A Oh, that was a nice troll. 26 Q You say, "I'm going to put it a little nicer 0145 01 than Grady would, but you can take your demand, fold 02 it till it is all corners, and stick it where the sun 03 don't shine." That's your language; isn't it? 04 A Yeah. I think it's rather colorful. However, 05 it was considerably exceeded by the follow-up post on 06 it. Go ahead. 07 Q "And, just to show" what I mean -- "show I mean 08 it, I am again asking for NOTs or any other 09 Scientology AT materials acquired by legal or illegal 10 means which describe criminal acts, amount to criminal 11 instruction manuals, or show the fraudulent bait and 12 switch nature of Scientology." That's your language, 13 too, isn't it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Thank you. 16 A However, it was considerably exceeded by the 17 follow-up poster on this. 18 Q Who was the follow-up poster? 19 A Steven Tes -- Tesla. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Who changed -- 22 Q There is no question. 23 A Who changed the subject line of it to "Origami 24 Butt Plug." 25 Q You find that amusing? 26 A I nearly died laughing. 0146 01 Q You enjoyed this, too, sending this one, this 02 response to Helena? 03 A That's true, but people beat me up all that ^^ ^^^^ [delete] 04 much. I'm really not that good at it. ^^^^ [delete, sub, "the time"] 05 Q But you had fun with this in any event, right? 06 A Yes. 07 Q Okay. Who is Mike Godwin? 08 A Mike Godwin is the chief counsel for EFF, 09 Electronic Frontier Foundation. 10 Q Have you had any discussions with him in the 11 last month or so? 12 A Yes. I don't think that I had any phone 13 discussions, but I think I have exchanged a little 14 e-mail with him. 15 Q Is that concerning Grady's case? 16 A No, mine. 17 Q It's concerning your case. He doesn't represent 18 you, does he? 19 A No. 20 Q What were those -- those e-mail communications 21 about? 22 A The fact that the request to produce documents 23 was asking for my e-mail with Mike Godwin. It was a 24 heads up that CoS might be going after EFF, too, and 25 Sherry Steele, who is one of the other lawyers there. 26 Q Has EFF posted any Scientology-copyrighted 0147 01 material? 02 A I don't know. I don't think so. 03 Q Has Sherry Steele to your knowledge? 04 A Not that I know of. 05 Q Has Mike Godwin? 06 A To the best of my knowledge, not, but I don't 07 know who SCAMIZDAT is. Could be any of those people. 08 Q Do you have reason to believe it might be? 09 A No. 10 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 11 Kobrin.) 12 Q Do you remember writing a letter to Judge Whyte 13 on or about -- on April 23rd, 1996 complaining about a 14 document request to Mr. Ward? 15 A I remember that I did write something of that 16 nature. 17 Q All right. 18 A Again, Judge Whyte should have a copy of that, 19 so there shouldn't be any argument about what's in it. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Assuming you have a true copy of it there, I 22 would certainly be willing to comment on it. 23 Q Okay. Now, you said in the letter, and I'll get 24 a copy out in a minute, "I've written a great deal 25 about Scientology and the AT materials in the past 14 26 months. Most of it has been public postings, but some 0148 01 has been private e-mail, some of that to 02 Scientologists. At times I have quoted parts of this 03 in very private mail to other critics such as Mr. 04 Ward." What parts of the AT materials did you quote 05 in private communications to Mr. Ward or others? 06 A I don't believe that that was referring to AT 07 materials, the quoting. 08 Q Oh, I see. What was it referring to? 09 A I don't know. Can you let me have a copy of it? 10 Q We'll give you a copy of it. 11 A I suspect that -- writing about AT materials, it 12 would then be the quoting about my writing about them, 13 not -- not quoting the AT materials themselves. 14 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 15 Kobrin.) 16 THE WITNESS: I truthfully cannot think of 17 any time where I have actually quoted any AT materials 18 in any private e-mail to any individual. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Mark that. 20 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 20 was 21 marked for identification by the 22 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this would be quoting 24 parts of private e-mail, especially to other -- from 25 Scientologists to other critics. 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: I see. 0149 01 THE WITNESS: That was what I was thinking 02 about at this point. 03 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. You see 04 this list of people here? 05 A Uh-huh. 06 Q I just want to go through that. 07 A Sure. 08 Q Alex DeJoode, do you know who he is? 09 A No. 10 Q I assume if you don't know who he is, you've 11 never had any communication with him; is that right? 12 A To the best of my knowledge, I haven't. 13 Q Right. 14 A On the other hand, I -- you know -- 15 Q Okay. Dennis Erlich, we've already discussed. 16 Steven Fishman, do you know Steven Fishman? 17 A I never met him. I've -- I've corresponded a 18 time or two on the net and, you know -- I've 19 corresponded with him. My primary thing to Steve 20 Fishman is trying to get Steve Fishman to be more 21 careful in checking his facts before he posts. He's 22 definitely a loose cannon, and we've -- there's been a 23 number of us who have been leaning on him. He 24 mistakenly posted somebody's e-mail address thinking 25 this was the famous Gene Ingram and it wasn't. 26 Johan -- 0150 01 Q Wait, wait, wait. On Steve Fishman, have you 02 ever had any communication with him about the contents 03 of any Scientology advanced materials? 04 A I don't believe so. To the best of my knowledge 05 I don't think I've ever discussed any of that stuff 06 with Steve Fishman, except whatever I've had in public 07 in -- on a.r.s. 08 Q What about Johan Helsingius? 09 A Johan runs the anonymous remailer in Finland 10 which was attacked and broken into by the 11 Scientologists in the very earliest days of this 12 thing. 13 Q Which was what? 14 A Attacked by -- the anonymous remailer, they got 15 one name out of it and the person they got the name -- 16 Q When you said broken into -- 17 A Well, they broke the -- they broke the anonymous 18 remailer from the standpoint that they got somebody's 19 name out of it. 20 Q Okay, but they didn't break into his offices or 21 anything, did they? 22 A Oh, yeah. They came to the door with the 23 police -- 24 Q With the police? 25 A Who later admitted they had been scammed 26 entirely. 0151 01 Q I don't know who they admitted it to, sir. 02 A They posted it on the net. I can get you the 03 postings for it. 04 Q Anyway, have you ever had any communications 05 with Johan? 06 A Yes. 07 Q What? 08 A I don't believe that I've had any communications 09 with Johan since my involvement with Scientology 10 started. I may have. It's been a very long time ago 11 when the -AB-/TC/Ms. Bloody Butt affair was going on, 12 was being analyzed on the net. 13 Q That has nothing to do with anything we were 14 talking about in this case, does it? 15 A Oh, yes, that's all Scientology, but I don't 16 believe -- I had some communications with Johan, but I 17 flat don't remember what it was about, but it was two, 18 three years ago. 19 Q Okay. Have you ever had any communication with 20 him about the advanced technology materials? 21 A Jeff Jacobsen? 22 Q Either Johan or Jeff Jacobsen. 23 A No. 24 Q Have you ever had communication with Jeff 25 Jacobsen? 26 A I actually talked with Jeff. I'm not sure I'd 0152 01 recognize him at this point. 02 Q In person or by telephone? 03 A In person. I was down in Phoenix for the 04 September picket of the Church of Scientology. I was 05 down there for something else and -- 06 Q Do you have any information that Jeff Jacobsen 07 has posted any information -- any proprietary 08 materials to the internet? 09 A I don't know. He might have, but I don't know 10 of any. 11 Q Tom Klemesrud, do you know him? 12 A I have not yet met Tom. I've exchanged a fair 13 amount of e-mail with him. Tom has one of the most 14 interesting cases that's involved in this whole thing. 15 The Tom Klemesrud/Linda Woolard events eventually will 16 make a major movie. 17 Q Is that a troll? 18 A No. Hemorrhoid blood five feet up on a wall has 19 just got to be a case to go on television. 20 Q Is that another troll? 21 A No. 22 Q Mr. Klemesrud -- have you had any -- excuse me, 23 any communication with Mr. Klemesrud about the 24 advanced technology materials, about the contents of 25 them or the posting of them? 26 A As far as I can remember, no. 0153 01 Q Okay. Do you have any information whatsoever 02 whether Mr. Klemesrud personally has posted any of the 03 materials himself? 04 A No, not at all. 05 Q We've already discussed Mr. Lerma. Have you 06 ever communicated with Peter Mante? 07 A I don't even know who Peter Mante is. 08 Q Okay. 09 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 10 Kobrin.) 11 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Ron Newman? 12 A Ron Newman runs the extremely well-known web 13 page on Scientology and their fight with the net. 14 I've never met him. I have talked in IRC with him. 15 He's -- his web page -- 16 Q In IRC -- you should identify what that means. 17 A Internet relay chat. 18 Q Which is what? 19 A Like realtime e-mail. 20 Q Realtime e-mail? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q What's the difference between realtime e-mail 23 and regular e-mail? 24 A Realtime means realtime within a couple of 25 minutes usually, depending on how lag the net is, but 26 you can sit there and type on the thing and when you 0154 01 put a line out, it will go out to the other people who 02 are in a chat room with you. I've never -- I don't 03 believe that I've ever talked to Ron Newman in person 04 or over the phone. 05 Q Have you ever talked to Snory Helgerson? 06 A Who? 07 Q Do you know who Snory Helgerson is? 08 A No. For some reason, that name rings a bell. I 09 don't know who that -- it sounds familiar. They may 10 have posted to the net or something. I don't know. 11 Q If you don't know, you don't know. 12 A Don't know. 13 Q What about any of the other people on this list 14 other than -- other than Ms. Thomson? 15 A Robert Penny, I know who he is. I've never met 16 him, never exchanged an e-mail. I've read a few of 17 his postings. Felipe Rodriquez, I believe, is from 18 the Netherlands, but I'm not sure. I've exchanged 19 e-mail with Karin Spaink, mostly about her legal case 20 against the Church of Scientology in the Netherlands. 21 Shelley, of course -- I've talked with Shelley since 22 she's a reporter on this kind of thing. David 23 Touretzky, I think he's on -- somewhere on the East 24 Coast, and I believe he at one point had -- had the 25 Fishman declaration on his machine, but I may have the 26 wrong person there. And Larry Wollersheim -- well, 0155 01 he's the famous guy who's been trying to collect his 02 money for 15 years or whatever it is from Scientology. 03 Ron "Neuman" is wrong, is misspelled, it's 04 N-E-W-M-A-N. 05 Q Right. It's even noted there that it's 06 misspelled. 07 A Yeah. 08 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Put that aside. 09 (Discussion held off the record.) 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let's take a two-minute 11 break. Go off the record. 12 (Discussion held off the record.) 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is 2:32 14 and we're going off the record. 15 (Recess taken.) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 17 record. The time now is 2:39. Go ahead, please. 18 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): You said a little 19 while ago you donated some money to FactNet. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you ever purchase or donate money in 22 exchange for any CD ROMs from FactNet? 23 A No. 24 Q Never obtained any CD ROMs from FactNet. 25 A Nope. 26 Q Okay. 0156 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: Did you give me 501 yet? 02 Here you go. 03 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 21 was 04 marked for identification by the 05 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 06 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a posting 07 to a.r.s. from Keith Henson dated 16th of April 1996, 08 a mere three weeks or so ago, subject, "Following 09 Vaclav Havel." 10 A I really should change the subject lines more 11 often. 12 Q Now, you see the middle paragraph there where 13 you say, "This may change"? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You say, "This may change, but to date the 16 actions of the CoS against me have afforded me nothing 17 but amusement." That's your language, isn't it? 18 A Given the usual disclaimers on this, it 19 certainly looks like it. 20 Q Yeah, and I think you've already indicated that 21 that, in fact, is precisely your attitude, right? 22 A Oh, yeah. 23 Q Okay. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: 505. 25 THE WITNESS: This is going to be great to 26 read in court. 0157 01 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 22 was 02 marked for identification by the 03 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 04 THE WITNESS: (Laughter). 05 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): This is a posting 06 dated April 17th from Keith Henson, subject, "I've got 07 mine." It's to a.r.s. and various other news groups 08 and it's in response to a posting from somebody named 09 Steve A. Do you know who Steve A is? 10 A Not sure. He may be the same guy that did the 11 a.r.s. SP levels. 12 Q Uh-huh. And it begins by discussing whether or 13 not your motion to recuse should have been called a 14 motion to recuse or a motion to dismiss. You recall 15 that? 16 A Well, the Complaint here was about what he 17 referred to as a cheap shot, but I wasn't upset. 18 Q You didn't think it was a cheap shot, did you? 19 A Well, no, I thought it was a cheap shot, but I 20 wasn't upset about it. I mean, lawyers are good for 21 cheap shots. 22 Q Thought it was a cheap shot to point out it 23 should have been called a motion to recuse? 24 A Did you read the rest of it? It turns out 25 Bender's Federal Form have -- has it wrong. 26 Q Uh-huh. 0158 01 A In fact, when I posted the thing originally, I 02 said I was pretty sure that -- in fact, there's a 03 previous posting to this where I posted the thing that 04 I had filed and I said I was pretty sure that it was 05 wrong, but I said, "Who am I to argue with Bender's 06 Federal Forms." I'm not a lawyer, I can't correct 07 their stupid typos. 08 Q Anyway, the point -- what I wanted to direct 09 your attention to was down at the bottom where you 10 say, "Defending Constitutional right may be a high 11 moral purpose, but it is also a lot of fun. Compared 12 to my other past and present hobbies, it fits right 13 in." 14 A Yes. 15 Q This is your language, too, isn't it? 16 A Well, it's -- along with my usual disclaimers on 17 the thing, it sounds like it. 18 Q And it's consistent with your view that -- that 19 this litigation a lot of fun for you? 20 A Well, isn't it to you? Or do you hate your 21 work? 22 Q Answer yes or no, please. 23 A Well, so far I've had a lot of fun. 24 Q Okay, thank you. 25 A You mean you're not going to ask me about my 26 past and present hobbies? 0159 01 Q No. 02 A Well, doesn't matter anyway. I posted them. 03 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 04 Kobrin.) 05 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would this be a good 06 time to change tape? 07 MR. LIEBERMAN: You're about to run out? 08 Why don't you do that then. 09 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the completion 10 of tape number 2 in the deposition of Keith Henson on 11 May 8th, 1996. The time now is 2:46. We're going off 12 the record to change tape. Clear to talk for just a 13 second. 14 (Recess taken.) 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mark that as the next one. 16 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 23 was 17 marked for identification by the 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: This will look familiar to 20 you. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm not on yet. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: We're talking off the 23 record. 24 (Discussion held off the record.) 25 (Recess taken.) 26 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. I'm going to 0160 01 bring up the sound. We're back on the record. This 02 is start of tape number 3 in the deposition of 03 Mr. Keith Henson on May 8th, 1996. The time now is 04 2:48. Go ahead, please. 05 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. I've 06 marked as Exhibit -- 07 A 23. 08 Q -- 23 defendant's objections and responses to 09 request for production of documents, which has a court 10 filed stamp on it of April 29th, 1996. Did you 11 prepare this document, Mr. Henson? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Turn to page 2. 14 A Okay. 15 Q In response to request number 1, which was all 16 copies of NED, N-E-D, for OTs series 34, whether in 17 hard copy or electronic form, you've stated you have 18 one hard copy and one electronic copy of the posted 19 document. Now, you previously testified you had one 20 hard copy contained within a copy of the letter to 21 Judge Whyte. Is that what you were referring to here? 22 A Right. I don't have any copies of O -- of NOTs 23 34 by itself. 24 Q Okay. Then in question 2 at the bottom of the 25 page, in response to question 2 you say, "Prior to 26 TRO, defendant might have given out a few" copies -- 0161 01 "few hard copies of March 26th letter or the longer 02 reply post which contained that letter, but at this 03 point does not recall doing so." 04 A I think I've answered that the same here today. 05 Q Yeah. And you -- if you did distribute a few 06 hard copies, you -- I think you testified you don't 07 remember who you did that to? 08 A No. 09 Q If you distributed, did you do it by hand or 10 would you have mailed it? 11 A No, it would have been by hand. I certainly 12 didn't mail any of them. I wouldn't -- it would be 13 unlike me to mail something like that which was in 14 electronic form which I could transfer to somebody a 15 thousand times easier with an e-mail. 16 Q Okay. Now, if you turn to page 3 -- 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q -- question 3 was "Any and all documents 19 relating to posting reproduction, distribution, or 20 display of works of L. Ron Hubbard, including, but not 21 limited to, the Works," and in the middle paragraph 22 beginning on line 15 you state, "While loading legal 23 files into defendant's long unused ftp directory" -- 24 and I think we already established what that means, 25 right? 26 A Right. 0162 01 Q -- "defendant found that defendant does have 02 what might be a compressed copy of some or all of 03 SKAMIZDAT postings which defendant downloaded from a 04 Scientology-associated ftp site, theta.com, to 05 defendant's ftp directory in October 1995." 06 A That's the date that's on the file. 07 Q Right. What is theta.com? 08 A I don't really know except that it's a 09 Scientology-associated site. 10 Q What do you mean by Scientology associated? 11 A It's got all sorts of L. Ron Hubbard works on 12 it. Before they put up their own site, it was the 13 only place on the net that had any Scientology stuff 14 that seemed to be, if not official, at least 15 semi-official. 16 Q Are you suggesting that this is a site which the 17 church created? 18 A Well, it certainly -- if it wasn't created by 19 them, it was certainly run with their -- with their 20 approval. 21 Q And on what basis -- 22 A At least that's my assumption. 23 Q Why do you assume that? 24 A Well, actually, I might be wrong. I will have 25 to find out who runs theta.com and depose them and 26 find that out, but you have a point, I might be wrong. 0163 01 Q You said you found SCAMIZDAT postings at 02 theta.com? 03 A Yes. 04 Q Why would the church be supporting an ftp site 05 with SCAMIZDAT postings on it? 06 A I don't know. 07 Q In any event, you downloaded SCAMIZDAT postings 08 from this ftp site; is that right? 09 A That's correct. 10 Q And you did that in October of 1995? 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q Which SCAMIZDAT postings did you download? 13 A Beats me. Never looked at them. 14 Q Why did you download them? 15 A I thought it was really funny to do it from a 16 church site. 17 Q Who would have been able to laugh with you other 18 than yourself? 19 A Oh, all the rest of the people on a.r.s. that 20 are the critics. 21 Q How would they have known that you downloaded it 22 to your own site? 23 A I posted extensively on having done it. I 24 twitted the church unmercifully about that for weeks 25 and they never responded. 26 Q Do you have any of those postings where you 0164 01 twitted the church unmercifully about it? 02 A No, as a matter of fact, but I probably can get 03 them if I ask for them. 04 Q Okay. 05 A I'm sure they've got them. I was really 06 surprised that they didn't respond to it, because I 07 would have deleted it if they said it was not an 08 official copy. 09 Q If they said it was not an official copy? 10 A Yeah. That was my offer. I clean forgot that I 11 had it there until I started -- until I started 12 stuffing legal papers over into the ftp directory and 13 what's this? Been sitting in my ftp directory for -- 14 ever since October of last year. 15 Q And you have no idea what was in there? 16 A No. I never decompressed them. Did you guys 17 get them apart? I mean, you've had them for better 18 part of a week. 19 Q Well, I'm not the deponent. 20 A Well -- sorry, I was just curious. I have no 21 idea what they actually were. I should ask at this 22 point though, can I delete them? 23 Q We'll get back to you on that. 24 A Okay. 25 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 26 Kobrin.) 0165 01 TIME: 2:55. 02 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Now, on page 4 on 03 line 13 you state, "Defendant also found parts of 04 SCAMIZDAT number 11 from which NOTs 34 was cut per the 05 description contained in the letter of March 26th to 06 Judge Whyte." 07 A Yes, we discussed this before. 08 Q You found this SCAMIZDAT 11 on your ftp site? 09 A Right -- no, not my ftp directory. 10 Q Where did you find that? 11 A They're in my home directory on Netcom. 12 Q Now, do you know when you downloaded SCAMIZDAT 13 11 in there? 14 A I didn't. 15 Q How did it get there? 16 A I copied it. 17 Q Do you know when you did that? 18 A No, but it would have been the day before the 19 March 26th letter, so it would have been maybe the 20 25th. 21 Q That's when you found it or when you copied -- 22 A When I copied it. It's described in the letter 23 of what I did to get this stuff. I copied it off the 24 news spool, which would have been sitting in for 25 heaven only knows how long. 26 Q And why did you copy it? 0166 01 A In order to have a copy of it. In order to 02 write the letter to Judge Whyte reporting criminal 03 activity. 04 Q What parts of SCAMIZDAT 11 did you -- did you 05 just copy the NOTs 34 part or did you copy other parts 06 of SCAMIZDAT 11? 07 A Well, the stuff that sits there, there's two 08 pieces which contain NOTs 34 that are cut like -- you 09 know, it's a long piece of string and they're cut at 10 different places, and two of them contain NOTs 34, and 11 not knowing which one of them, I had the whole thing, 12 they both seemed to have the whole of NOTs 34 in it. 13 They're sitting in my home directory, but I don't 14 remember which one I cut it out of. 15 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 16 Kobrin.) 17 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Is your -- is 18 your ftp directory on Netcom or on Portal? 19 A Netcom. After I discovered the stuff, I went 20 through my Portal directory and didn't find any. 21 Q Okay. Top of page 5, the request was for 22 documents which you have received as a result of your 23 solicitation, and you say, "No documents possessed." 24 I just want to confirm what I believe was your prior 25 testimony that not only do you not possess any such 26 documents, but that you never received any; is that -- 0167 01 A I never received any. There was never any 02 e-mail or any hard copy sent to me as a result of 03 that. I think everybody who read that thing among the 04 critics out there knew that this was big-time 05 trolling and didn't want to burden me with such 06 nonsense. 07 Q Did you anticipate that you would be sued as a 08 result of this trolling? 09 A I figured there was a fair probability of it. 10 Q And you considered that it was okay to do that 11 and to -- 12 A I actually -- 13 Q -- to induce the church into -- 14 A I actually didn't figure that they would find a 15 judge who would be willing to do it. 16 Q Now, number 9, "Any and all documents relating 17 to the licensing or customer agreement between you and 18 any internet access provider." Now, we established 19 that your access providers are Netcom and Portal. 20 A Right. 21 Q Do you have such documents? 22 A Actually not. 23 Q So your objection is meaningless because you 24 don't have them to produce in any event; is that 25 right? 26 A Well, that's true. If I went to some trouble, I 0168 01 could probably get them, but I didn't see any point in 02 doing that. 03 Q By if you went to some trouble you could 04 probably get them, meaning you could ask your access 05 providers to provide them to you? 06 A Right, but you guys can do that, too. 07 Q Well, if we asked them for it, are you going to 08 maintain your objection to our seeing them? 09 A To the irrelevance on it? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Probably. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Object on general principles. 14 Q The reason we want to see them, so you 15 understand it, is to see whether there are any 16 provisions with respect to copyright infringement on 17 it which is relevant to this case. Do you maintain 18 your objection in light of that explanation? 19 A Well, I certainly don't think I've infringed any 20 copyrights. 21 Q That's -- that's not the point. Do you maintain 22 your objection to our discovering those documents? 23 A Well, it doesn't make any difference whether I 24 object or not on it. I mean, I don't have any control 25 over you guys goin and asking Portal and Netcom for a [going] 26 copy of their customer service agreements. It's a 0169 01 public document, for heaven sakes. 02 Q Number 10. 03 A I've already stated I've never -- 04 Q You not only don't have them, but you have no 05 memory of ever receiving them? 06 A I don't believe I've ever received any. 07 Q Okay. Same is true with number 11? 08 A Yep. 09 TIME: 3:02 10 Q Now looking at Number 12, which says, "Any and 11 all documents relating to postings made by you," 12 et cetera, putting aside any documents relating to 13 postings having nothing to do with Scientology -- 14 A I don't keep them. 15 Q You don't keep them. So you do not have any. 16 A I really -- you know, I figure other people 17 archive this stuff. My writing isn't -- isn't that 18 stellar, so -- 19 Q If the answer is you don't have them, that's all 20 I want to know. 21 A But I did give you a pointer to my articles on 22 memetics. 23 Q Look at number 19. I know you have deposited an 24 objection to producing these documents. What I want 25 to know is whether any exist with respect to each of 26 these individuals. 0170 01 A Prior to the date of being sued, I don't believe 02 I have anything that I've saved from any of these 03 people. 04 Q And after the date? 05 A I'm not sure. I haven't cleaned things up since 06 then, but in any case, I didn't -- in any case, I'm 07 going -- I would object, and you're going to have to 08 wind up getting a court order -- 09 Q I understand that. I want to know if we have to 10 do that, what the scope of -- of the objection is, 11 which I'm entitled to have. When you make an 12 objection on the basis of privilege, such as this, 13 you're entitled to maintain that objection until the 14 court rules on it, but you're also required to 15 delineate what documents were -- are at issue. 16 A I don't think I saved any e-mail from these 17 people. 18 Q Okay. Can you check on that and let us know 19 that? 20 A Sure. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Counterclaim. 22 (Discussion held off the record.) 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll wait for the copy to 24 be made. 25 While we're waiting, why don't we take a 26 two-minute break. It's going to take a few minutes to 0171 01 copy that. 02 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:07. 03 We're going off the record. Clear to talk. 04 (Recess taken.) 05 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 24 was 06 marked for identification by the 07 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 08 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 09 record. The time now is 3:14 in the afternoon. Go 10 ahead, please. 11 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. We have 12 marked as Exhibit 24 a document entitled "Answer and 13 Counterclaims" filed April 25th, 1996 by the defendant 14 Keith Henson. Did you basically draft this by 15 yourself? 16 A I took off from Grady Ward's -- I sucked Grady 17 Ward's thing into my editor, and I hope I managed to 18 change all cases of Grady Ward to Keith Henson and not 19 miss any. 20 Q Okay. I'm just going to ask you a few questions 21 about this document. 22 A Sure. 23 Q On page 2, line 13, you say, "avers that 24 plaintiff's e-mail complaint was intended to 25 intimidate lawful criticism." What e-mail complaint 26 are you referring to? 0172 01 A Probably the July -- the July threat letter, but 02 I could have been responding to both of them. 03 Probably was. 04 Q You're talking here not about the complaint in 05 the lawsuit, you're talking about a cease and desist 06 letter from Ms. Kobrin? 07 A Right. 08 Q Okay. Just wanted to be clear about that. 09 A I appreciate the editing. 10 Q Page 4. 11 A There's a lot of spelling errors in this thing. 12 Q Okay. In paragraph 7 -- 13 A Uh-huh, yes. 14 Q -- you say, "This answering defendant is 15 informed and believes." The word informed suggests 16 that you have been informed of this by somebody; is 17 that correct? 18 A Self-informed. 19 Q Okay. 20 A It's legalesse. I probably should have used 21 different words, but I'm not a lawyer. 22 Q It's okay. 23 A Should I stick in self-informed? 24 Q No, no. That's why I'm asking the questions. 25 Now we know. 26 Page 6, I probably shouldn't do this, but 0173 01 I'm going to ask you what Extropian magazine is. 02 A Extropians are a group of people who are out on 03 the -- if you will, the bleeding edge of technology, 04 people who are into nanotechnology, uploading 05 themselves into computers or robot bushes, into the 06 study of many aspects of highly transhuman 07 metamorphose. 08 Q Is this magazine published on a regular basis? 09 A Oh, yes. I think it's quarterly. 10 Q How often -- quarterly? 11 A It's a nice big, slick magazine. 12 Q Is this a paid position that you have there? 13 A No, but I show up in the masthead. 14 Q Do you get paid as a freelancer for any articles 15 you write for them? 16 A Yes. Not for this magazine, but I certainly 17 have been paid for other magazines. 18 Q Okay. By the way, a little while ago you said 19 that you had affixed to the bulletin board at work the 20 latest cease and desist letter you received. 21 A No, the previous -- the one back in July. 22 Q Oh, okay. Where -- what work site did you do 23 this in? 24 A One of my consulting jobs. 25 Q I see. Okay. The next paragraph you say, "He 26 is currently the president and CEO of XOC. What's 0174 01 XOC? 02 A Xanadu Operating Company. 03 Q What is that? 04 A One the originators of hypertext. 05 Q Is that -- 06 A If you want to know more, about a week ago there 07 was a front page article about it on the Wall Street 08 Journal. 09 Q Okay. Is it a company that is presently 10 operating? 11 A Barely. 12 Q And what did it do actually? 13 A It spent about 4 and-a-half million dollars 14 worth of Autodesk's money and developed the world's 15 most powerful hypertext system. 16 Q Was this a paid position when you were president 17 and CEO? 18 A I still am and yes, in stock. 19 Q Okay. The stock apparently isn't worth very 20 much at the moment; is that right? 21 A Well, I'm in the process of swapping 10 percent 22 of it for $900,000 worth of effort that somebody did. 23 Q You're a member of the board of Alcor Life 24 Extension Foundation. 25 A Right. 26 Q Is this the cryonics -- 0175 01 A Yes. 02 Q Do you hold any executive positions with that or 03 are you just on the board? 04 A No, just on the board. 05 Q Then you say through your activities with Alcor 06 you became knowledgeable with the ECPA? 07 A Right. That's the lawsuit that you introduced 08 earlier. 09 Q Okay. Now, paragraph 9, you say, "Keith Henson 10 has been informed and on that basis believes that on 11 January 11th, 1995, attorney for the plaintiff, Helena 12 Kobrin, executed or caused to be executed a special 13 computer command called a RMGROUP to automatically 14 destroy the internet discussion group designated 15 alt.religion.scientology." You weren't a participant 16 in a.r.s. at the time; is that correct? 17 A I'm not sure. I don't remember the exact day 18 that I -- that I went onto that. I might have been. 19 It was right around that time. 20 Q But I thought you said that, in fact, the event 21 that triggered your becoming interested in it was when 22 you learned of this alleged act; isn't that right? 23 A I'm actually not certain whether it was that one 24 or something which occurred very close to that time, 25 which was the raid on the pin net server. I honestly [penet] 26 can't answer you on that. However, somebody managed 0176 01 to get a letter that Helena wrote, if I remember 02 correctly, and posted it to the internet, 03 and, of course, this particular event was a major 04 event. It was discussed all over the net. It was 05 discussed particularly in comp.org.eff.talk, which is 06 where I used to hang out. 07 Q You don't do that anymore? 08 A I read it occasionally. I try to catch up with 09 it once in a while. 10 Q Now, how does this command -- how is this 11 command supposed to automatically destroy a discussion 12 group? 13 A The -- just in a rough way of describing it, the 14 messages that are distributed to -- to news servers go 15 into a directory structure in a particular case. Here 16 it goes into one that's under the news spool and then 17 under the alt hierarchy and then under religion and 18 then under Scientology where you build this multilevel 19 directory, and the effect of RMGROUP causes the 20 operating system of the news server to delete the 21 file -- sorry, to delete all the contents of that 22 directory and then to remove the entire directory 23 itself so that further -- 24 Q So is all anybody in the world needs to do to 25 destroy a discussion group is just put RM on some 26 header and send it out and the news group will just be 0177 01 destroyed? 02 A Right. 03 Q But it didn't happen, did it? 04 A Well, it didn't happen because people 05 immediately reinstated it. 06 Q Are you saying that it was destroyed and then it 07 was reinstated? 08 A Oh, yeah. It was destroyed on, I don't know, 09 thousands of sites and all the postings were gone. 10 Q How -- 11 A Well, there were -- reports about it were all 12 over the net for weeks. It was a major event. A lot 13 -- 14 Q So if I sent out an RMGROUP thing today, went to 15 my computer and I typed that out and sent it out, I 16 could destroy alt.religion.scientology tomorrow -- 17 immediately? That's you testimony? 18 A In all the places that honor those requests. A 19 lot of people have gotten really tired of people 20 destroying groups like that and they won't even honor 21 those requests. They simply turn off the permissions 22 or else they cause that to be fed into something where 23 they can look at it and see if this is -- if this is a 24 destruction of a group that hasn't had anything posted 25 in it for years or is somebody being destructive and 26 trying to cut off legitimate discussion of some topic. 0178 01 Q Isn't it true, sir, that almost all access 02 providers do not have their system set up so that 03 somebody can automatically remove a group from it, 04 that it has to go through human -- 05 A Oh, no, far -- 06 Q -- human control and discretion? 07 A No. By numbers, I would say far more -- many 08 more people have it turned on than turned off. Now, 09 the bigger providers, like Portal and Netcom and 10 people like that, have it go through a human editing 11 stage on it, but most of the smaller people don't. 12 And so I don't know how many places -- places this 13 actually deleted all the files which were in 14 alt.religion.scientology, but it was probably a 15 substantial number of them. 16 Q And why would anyplace set up their system so 17 that anybody in the world could just destroy a news 18 group on it? 19 A It used to be that people were more trusted in 20 this business. 21 Q Uh-huh. 22 TIME: 3:26. 23 Q Look at page 9. 24 A Uh-huh. 25 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 26 Kobrin.) 0179 01 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Now, sir, do you 02 have any documents that show that -- as you allege, 03 that Helena Kobrin sent out such a message? 04 A I'm not sure. I doubt it. 05 Q What's the basis for your allegation? 06 A I've seen the message. 07 Q Where have you seen it? 08 A It was on a.r.s. a year ago or so like that. 09 Q What did the message say? 10 A It -- control messages tends to be rather short. 11 It mentioned something about the name being 12 trademarked and something else like that and -- 13 Q So it -- so there was a -- 14 A Yeah, there's a comment. 15 Q -- a comment on it -- 16 A Comment field. 17 Q -- that gave reasons, and it said, "Please 18 remove this news group," didn't it? 19 A It wasn't please remove, it was directed to 20 bots, electronic automated machinery all over 21 the net that destroyed things. I'm sure I can get a 22 copy of that letter. I -- I hadn't really thought 23 of -- and probably can ask Mr. Ward for a copy. I 24 think he may have included it in his filings. If not, 25 I can certainly -- certainly provide one. I'll have 26 to ask, but I know it exists out there. 0180 01 Q And didn't the message say, "We request that you 02 remove the a.r.s. news group from your site. Please 03 confirm that you have done so." You don't recall 04 seeing that? 05 A You're quoting it. 06 Q Does that -- that sounds familiar to you? 07 A It sounds very similar to it. 08 Q So that's a request, isn't it, sir? 09 A Well, for some sites, yeah, some sites where 10 people actually read it, but I know that as a control 11 message, it doesn't necessarily go through human 12 hands. Like I say, if they had the news -- the 13 news -- the system which loads news into the 14 directories, if it's set up the default way, it just 15 deletes it. Gone. 16 Q That's up to the individuals who run those 17 systems, isn't it, as to how they want to set up their 18 system? As you said, many systems are set up -- the 19 major systems are set up so that there is somebody who 20 reviews such requests, isn't there? Isn't that right? 21 A That's -- that may be -- that is to the best of 22 my knowledge true. It may or may not -- I don't know 23 whether it's true in all of the major systems, and I 24 don't know at what size you cut off major systems. I 25 do know -- 26 Q Certainly a system -- a system can choose to set 0181 01 itself up so that there is human control over that; 02 isn't that correct? 03 A That is true. 04 Q Now, do you have any evidence as to the actual 05 destruction of sites? What evidence do you have of 06 that? 07 A Oh, there were people complaining about it for 08 weeks. 09 Q I'm not talking about people complaining about 10 it. Do you have any hard evidence of that, that 11 anything actually happened? 12 A No, not -- certainly not with me, but I'll bet I 13 could get it for you pretty quick. Would you like 14 affidavits from various sites that it did -- 15 Q I'm just asking you what you have now, sir. 16 A I think I could get it. That's a good -- good 17 point. I'll try to do that. 18 TIME: 3:31 19 Q Okay. On page 10, paragraph 18, you say, "Keith 20 Henson has been informed and on that basis believes 21 that on April 10th, 1996 a man claiming to be an 22 investigator called his ex-wife and attempted to 23 obtain information which would be damaging to Keith 24 Henson." I have a couple questions about that. 25 First, you say has been informed. Were you 26 informed -- 0182 01 A E-mail from my ex-wife. 02 Q What's your ex-wife's name? 03 A Carolyn Mynel. 04 Q And do you have a copy of that e-mail? 05 A I don't think so. 06 Q You destroyed it? 07 A I delete all my e-mail. It's possible -- it's 08 possible that she kept a copy of it. I might be able 09 to get it for you if you really want it. 10 Q Yes, I do. 11 A Or if you want, I might be able to get an 12 affidavit from her, if you prefer that. 13 Q No, I'd like to see the e-mail. 14 What did she say in the e-mail? 15 A It was just essentially this (indicating). 16 Q Well, what did she say -- did she identify the 17 person? 18 A By name? No. I don't believe the person 19 identified themselves to her. 20 Q Did she say what the person said to her? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q Did she say what information he tried to obtain? 23 A Not in detail. 24 Q How about not in detail? 25 A Said about the same thing that I put in here 26 (indicating). 0183 01 Q So is all she said is he tried to obtain 02 information which might be damaging to you, but she 03 wouldn't say what information that was? 04 A No. 05 Q Did you call her to find out? 06 A No. 07 Q Did you e-mail her to find out? 08 A No. 09 Q Never made -- no inquiry further? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you respond to the e-mail in any way? 12 A I think I warned her that -- I think I warned 13 her that there might be other attempts to do this. 14 Q How did you warn her? 15 A With e-mail. 16 Q So you did respond to it? 17 A Yeah, I guess I did. 18 Q What did you say in the e-mail? 19 A Just a warning that -- that they could take tape 20 material and resplice it, having been known to do 21 that. 22 Q They could take tape material -- 23 A Yeah, taped -- any responses she would make over 24 the phone. 25 Q Did you say anything else in your response? 26 A No. 0184 01 Q Did you keep a copy of your response? 02 A No. 03 Q Destroyed that, too? 04 A No, I didn't -- I never keep a copy of -- very 05 seldom keep copies of my e-mail going out. 06 Q So your response was simply this warning about 07 tape. 08 A Yeah. 09 Q Nothing else was in it? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. Did your wife -- in your wife's e-mail, 12 did she say anything other than a man attempted to 13 obtain this information? 14 A No. 15 Q Did she say what she had said to him? 16 A No. She just -- she said she hadn't been 17 responsive to him. 18 Q Did she say what she did say to him? 19 A No. 20 Q Did she say she told him to go away? 21 A I -- I don't know what she said. It was a very 22 short e-mail message. 23 Q Did she ask you what she should do if he came 24 back? 25 A No. 26 Q Did she say anything about what her reaction to 0185 01 it was? 02 A No. 03 Q When was the last time you had been in 04 communication with your ex-wife? 05 A Some months before that. 06 Q How often do you communicate with her? 07 A Not very often. 08 Q Did you have children together? 09 A Yes. 10 Q Is that the usual subject of your communications 11 at this point? 12 A It has been the subject of most communications 13 over the past ten years. 14 Q Are those children grown now? 15 A Yes. Pretty close. 16 Q Are they still living with your ex-wife? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Teenagers? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How many children are there? 21 A Four. The older ones are long gone. 22 Q Uh-huh. When did you get divorced from your 23 ex-wife? 24 A '80, I think. I'm not real good at keeping 25 track of dates. 26 Q Would you characterize it as a fairly bitter 0186 01 divorce? 02 A Relative to some that I've seen, no. 03 Q Was there a custody fight? 04 A No. 05 Q You agreed to her having custody? 06 A Yes. 07 Q Was there some sort of order sought that you 08 keep away from the children? 09 A No. 10 Q What was -- when you got this e-mail you made no 11 further inquiry of her as to what was said? 12 A No. 13 Q You weren't interested? 14 A No. It wasn't that, it was just expected that 15 this would occur, so it wasn't any kind of surprise 16 for me. 17 Q Okay. Paragraph 19, you make various 18 allegations about somebody named Eugene Ingram. 19 A Yes. An indirect employee of the Church of 20 Scientology and/or RTC. 21 Q And you say in lines 19 and 20 -- you make 22 reference to Mr. Ingram's felony warrant in the State 23 of Florida. Do you see that? 24 A Yep. Would you like a copy of that? I didn't 25 bring one. I've got one. 26 Q Mr. Henson -- Mr. Henson, you want to get out of 0187 01 here early, right? 02 A I don't care. 03 Q Let me just ask the questions. That felony 04 warrant, did that relate in any way to you? 05 A In Mr. -- the felony warrant? 06 Q Yes, in Florida. Did it have anything to do 07 with you? 08 A No, except I'm just interested in it. 09 Q I understand that. I'm just asking that 10 question. You then go on to say, "It would not be a 11 surprise to find blackmail of state officials was 12 involved." Which state officials do you think were 13 blackmailed? 14 A Jay Pruner. 15 Q Do you have any evidence of that? 16 A No. Actually, I guess I do have evidence of 17 that. An extreme change of heart over a period of a 18 few days. 19 Q That's it? 20 A Yes, that's it. 21 Q Okay. You'll see on page 12, paragraph 22 beginning on -- with line 5, you make allegations that 23 various people have attempted to intimidate you 24 through defamation. In what way do you think you've 25 been defamed? 26 A Typically Vera Wallace's postings. 0188 01 Q What did Vera Wallace's postings say that was 02 defamatory? 03 A I can't quote it at this point. She defamed 04 just about everybody you could name in there. 05 Q Okay, but sitting here today, you can't tell me 06 what the defamation was? 07 A No, but I could certainly dig it up for you. 08 Q Threats of barratry -- what's barratry by the 09 way? 10 A It's what Helena got fined for last year. 11 Q What barratry has been -- threats of barratry 12 and barratry have been engaged in against you? 13 A This case. 14 Q This case is barratry? 15 A (Witness nods head up and down.) 16 Q This case in which a preliminary injunction has 17 been issued against you is barratry; that's your 18 testimony? 19 A That's my opinion. 20 Q Okay. So that's what this is based -- this 21 allegation is based upon this very case? 22 A And other ones. 23 Q What other cases have been filed against you? 24 A And others filed against other people. This is 25 just typical -- 26 Q So you're suing for damages for cases that were 0189 01 filed against other people or just against you? 02 A Good thought. I ought to make it a class 03 action. 04 Q You yourself are seeking damages only on -- for 05 damages that you've incurred, I assume; is that right? 06 A Chances of me collecting any damages from these 07 people are zero, even if I win them. 08 Q Will you please answer my question. 09 A Sure, I'm seeking damages, why not? 10 Q For lawsuits filed against other people? 11 A No, for barratrous behavior. 12 Q Against you or against other people? 13 A It's not only me, but other people. 14 Q So your -- this claim is for lawsuits and 15 threats of lawsuits against other people; is that your 16 testimony? 17 A I think I probably should take your advice to 18 heart and reword it. I do get one chance or two 19 chances to do that. 20 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 21 Kobrin.) 22 TIME: 3:43 23 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): By threats of 24 barratry, you mean threats of lawsuits; is that your 25 concept? 26 A Threats of unjustified lawsuits. Barratry is an 0190 01 unjustified lawsuit, among other things. 02 Q And you believe this lawsuit is unjustified? 03 A Yes, I do. 04 Q Now, when you made this allegation about 05 defamation, did you -- 06 A Which -- where -- 07 Q The one just before barratry. I went back a 08 step to defamation. 09 A Defamation. 10 Q When you made this allegation, what -- what 11 defamatory statements did you intend to include within 12 that? 13 A Stuff by Vera Wallace. 14 Q But you can't -- 15 A Oh, I can find it if you want. No problem. 16 Q But sitting here today, you can't tell me what 17 they were? 18 A I can't quote them in detail any more than I can 19 quote any of this stuff here, but I definitely 20 remember that that was done. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Of course, it's like defamation from the 23 LaRouchians, nobody takes them that seriously. 24 Q So you didn't take it very seriously? 25 A Well, the truth of it is you really can't take 26 defamation from Scientologists very seriously. I 0191 01 could have sued the LaRouchians, on that matter, 02 except that nobody would have believed anything they 03 said. I've been defamed by people before. 04 Q But none of this stopped you from participating 05 in a.r.s., did it? 06 A No. 07 Q In fact, as you said, you had a great deal of 08 fun about it, right? 09 A Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that I -- that 10 I can't claim defamation. 11 Q Okay. 12 (Discussion between Mr. Lieberman and Ms. 13 Kobrin.) 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think we'll go off the 15 record for a minute. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Okay. The 17 time now is 3:46. We're going off the record. Clear 18 to talk. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is 3:53. 21 We're back on the record. Go ahead, please. 22 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. 23 Mr. Henson, I think near the end of last week you 24 filed a document called reply to second declaration of 25 Warren McShane. 26 A Oh, yes. 0192 01 Q All right. And you attached two sets of 02 exhibits to that. One Exhibit A was a document 03 authored by somebody named Marjorie Wakefield; is that 04 right? 05 A That's true. 06 Q And then Exhibit B were a set of -- a collection 07 of documents; is that right? 08 A Actually, there's Exhibit -- there aren't any 09 tabs on it. I'm sorry. There's actually B, C and 10 D, I think. They're labeled large script on the 11 bottom. 12 Q Oh, I see, yes. Okay. There was a D as well, 13 you think? 14 A I think there's D. 15 Q Yes. Okay. So I'm only interested in 16 Exhibit B, so I'm going to take C and D off. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Be careful. Ask you to go 18 mark that. 19 (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 25 was 20 marked for identification by the 21 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Watch your fingers. There 23 you go. Be careful that staple. 24 (Discussion held off the record.) 25 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Okay. 26 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 25 is, in fact, merely a 0193 01 copy of Exhibit B to Mr. Henson's reply to the second 02 declaration of Warren McShane, and this consists of 03 several reprints apparently of HCO bulletins, HCO 04 bulletins of the Church of Scientology. Mr. Henson, 05 from where did you obtain these documents? 06 A The net. 07 Q You downloaded them from the net? 08 A No. As a matter of fact, somebody sent them to 09 me as e-mail through the net. 10 Q I see. 11 A Is this part of AT? 12 Q I don't think we're claiming that it is. 13 A Okay. I said in there I was taking a risk on 14 doing that. 15 Q So this was e-mailed to you by whom? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q How long ago? 18 A Prior to the date I turned this thing in by 19 about two days or so, and I downloaded it and stripped 20 the headings on it in the process of producing this, 21 and I don't know who it was. 22 Q It was only a few days ago. You don't remember 23 who sent it to you? 24 A Didn't remember -- didn't look even. 25 Q And are you stripped the headings off? 26 A Yeah. 0194 01 Q What -- you maintained no record of the 02 headings? 03 A No. What I did is I sucked actually several 04 pieces of stuff, this and the other -- D -- C and D, 05 and a great deal -- the main piece that this is the 06 reference to I posted to the net in draft form. 07 Q You're referring to your actual reply? 08 A Yeah, the reply to the McShane thing. 09 Q Right. 10 A And I had -- it took forever to get that thing 11 done because I sucked all this material together that 12 people had downloaded to me in response to that and 13 merged it all together, and cut out these pieces here 14 as -- as exhibits. 15 Q Okay. Did you obtain Exhibit B from the same 16 source as you obtained Exhibit C and D from? 17 A I don't think so. I think they were all 18 separate people that sent those in. I'm not sure at 19 this point which those are even. 20 Q Did you obtain these from Mr. Wollersheim or 21 Mr. Penny? 22 A I would have remembered those people. These 23 are -- these were people that I had never heard of 24 and, as a matter of fact, I do know that one of the 25 things, and I don't remember which one it was, it 26 might well have been Exhibit B, was actually sent to 0195 01 me by -- indirectly by -- to somebody else who sent it 02 to them who sent it on to me, and they had stripped 03 out the names and headers on it, so I have no idea who 04 it came from. 05 Q Did you post Exhibit B to the net? 06 A No, I don't think -- well, I take that back. 07 Maybe I did. I don't -- I truthfully don't remember 08 whether I did it or not. 09 Q You -- 10 A It would be on the net if I did. 11 Q Are you aware that these documents are also 12 copyrighted? 13 A Fair use. 14 Q Your idea of fair use is it's okay to republish 15 them in their entirety? 16 A I don't believe this is in -- entire. I think 17 there's a big piece missing out of it. Yeah. A 18 number of pages have been removed from this 19 abbreviated version. The pages removed include 20 details of the questions submitted, and from the fact 21 that there's 580 on here and 604, looks like there 22 were like 24 pages removed from it, so -- 23 Q That's one document, there -- 24 A I don't believe I posted this thing, although I 25 might have. I don't remember for sure. 26 Q Are you aware that they've been copyrighted? 0196 01 A Oh, everything's copyrighted. Stuff is born 02 copyrighted. Everything that you guys have duplicated 03 here of my material is copyrighted. 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. At this time I have 05 no further questions of you. If at some point later 06 in the case facts develop which require further 07 questioning, I reserve our right to request that of 08 the court, but at this point I have no further 09 questions. 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. HENSON: 11 THE WITNESS: I'd like to introduce a 12 number of exhibits, the first one being a Playboy for 13 June 1996 -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: You're not really going to 15 introduce a Playboy into this? 16 THE WITNESS: Why not? It's applicable. 17 One of the arguments is that this material has been 18 very carefully maintained, and I can show in the 2 19 million people who've seen this piece of the thing, 20 Travolta -- short paragraph, "Travolta credits 21 Scientology for his mental stability. As a graduate 22 of some of the most advanced levels of Scientology 23 training, Travolta is required to believe that he is 24 possessed by the spirits of murdered space aliens. 25 Does this sound like mental stability to you?" 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: So you want to introduce 0197 01 that? 02 THE WITNESS: Yes. 03 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. Well, let her mark 04 it first. 05 (Discussion held off the record.) 06 (WHEREUPON, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT A was 07 marked for identification by the 08 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 09 THE WITNESS: In fact, actually, the date 10 is on this page. So she didn't need to do that. Just 11 this page would be enough. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: I'd like to introduce a -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: You got to give me copies 15 of those. Do you have copies of those? 16 THE WITNESS: Sorry. We'll have to run -- 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see it before you 18 introduce it so I can make an objection. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I should have run 20 this stuff, but I didn't do it until this morning. 21 It's a newspaper article on the Vosper 22 case. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: From when? There's no 24 date on it or anything. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't remember when the 26 Vosper case was, but -- 0198 01 MR. LIEBERMAN: Where does this come 02 from? There is no identification on it or anything. 03 THE WITNESS: a.r.s. 04 MR. LIEBERMAN: Maybe what we ought to do 05 is take three minutes just to copy these things. 06 THE WITNESS: Fine by me. 07 MR. LIEBERMAN: So that we can take a look 08 at them while you're introducing them. So if we could 09 go off the record for just a few minutes while these 10 exhibits are copied. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. The time now is 12 4:04. We're going off the record. Clear to talk. 13 (Recess taken.) 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 15 record. The time is 4:18. Go ahead, please. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. We've already 17 introduced one of these exhibits. I want to introduce 18 Exhibit B, which is a newspaper story about a 1971 19 case, Vosper case, and that should be B. 20 (WHEREUPON, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT B was 21 marked for identification by the 22 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me see a copy of that. 24 THE WITNESS: Sure. I'll keep one and you 25 guys can have the rest of them. 26 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. I'm going to object 0199 01 to this exhibit. It still gets marked. 02 THE WITNESS: Right. 03 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm going to object to 04 this exhibit as -- that there's no identification on 05 it as to where it came from, what it is. 06 THE WITNESS: Okay. 07 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's also irrelevant, but 08 relevance is reserved. 09 THE WITNESS: Right. Okay. C, this is 10 a -- I'm trying to remember the guy's name, Wayne -- 11 can somebody help? 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: I haven't seen it. I 13 don't know what it is. 14 THE WITNESS: Whitney. Okay, this is a 15 story by Wayne Whitney which has been posted to the 16 internet, and you can mark it as C, I guess it is. 17 (WHEREUPON, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT C was 18 marked for identification by the 19 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 20 MS. KOBRIN: Copies? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, copies. And this 22 relates in that this can eventually be turned into -- 23 this is just a heads up for you guys because it's -- 24 it can probably be turned into an affidavit. The guy 25 is locally available, I believe. I've asked him for 26 it as an affidavit, but I haven't got it yet, and 0200 01 again, if you want to object, it's just fine. 02 MR. LIEBERMAN: I object, no foundation. 03 No identification. 04 THE WITNESS: Well -- okay. 05 MR. LIEBERMAN: Next? 06 THE WITNESS: The next one is a, I'm 07 sorry, poorly done copy of the Ninth Circuit Court of 08 Appeals. This is the Religious Technology Center 09 versus Robin Scott, et al. And this is where I 10 believe that my contention of estopple with respect to 11 trade secrets has been established by the Ninth 12 Circuit, and -- 13 (Discussion held off the record.) 14 (WHEREUPON, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT D was 15 marked for identification by the 16 Certified Shorthand Reporter.) 17 THE WITNESS: There you go. And I guess 18 that's it. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Objection on a variety of 20 grounds. Ninth Circuit opinion is not for 21 publication, which means it can't be used in any other 22 case. 23 THE WITNESS: Well, that may -- it may be 24 published. And finally -- 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Now, before you introduce 26 this one, I have to say that this one we object to 0201 01 introducing and marking as an exhibit because it 02 contains identifications of upper-level processes, the 03 very titles of which in some instances are trade 04 secret information. Now, there are two alternatives. 05 One is for you not to introduce it. 06 THE WITNESS: Right. 07 MR. LIEBERMAN: The other is to introduce 08 it, if you insist, sealed. 09 THE WITNESS: I don't care. We can 10 introduce it sealed if it's just as good as anything 11 else. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Or you can withdraw it. 13 It's up to you, but the court says that anything 14 having to do with these materials needs to be 15 submitted in sealed form and -- 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I tell you what, 17 rather than submit it here today kind of thing, I'll 18 just let you have all the copies and you guys can 19 shred them and I'll introduce -- if I decide to 20 introduce it, I'll seal it and give it to the court 21 directly. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: However, I should go ahead 24 and tell you where that came from. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, because I was going 26 to ask you. 0202 01 THE WITNESS: Well, I have no problem 02 telling you where it came from. It was spammed all 03 over the net Sunday night, I believe, and was on 04 altavista and dejanews, and it's still on Netcom in an 05 HTLM version. 06 MR. LIEBERMAN: And you downloaded it? 07 THE WITNESS: I downloaded the index. 08 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 09 THE WITNESS: Just as -- to establish that 10 whatever trade secrets these things had, they -- if 11 exposing stuff ruins a trade secret status of the 12 thing, it's -- it's ruined. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: Are you through? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. You can seal that. 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: I have just one or two 16 questions. 17 THE WITNESS: Sure. 18 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. LIEBERMAN: 19 Q (By Mr. Lieberman): Do you know -- 20 have any information as to who posted this? 21 A The stuff is signed Valar or Volar or something 22 like that. 23 Q Volar? 24 A Volar, yeah. 25 Q Do you know who Volar is? 26 A Nope. 0203 01 Q Any information whatsoever? 02 A Was a complete surprise to me when it showed up 03 on the net. 04 Q Okay. 05 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Any other questions? 06 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think we're through. 07 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. I'll take us off 08 the record. This is the completion of the deposition 09 of Keith Henson on May 8th, 1996 which has consisted 10 of three videotapes. We're going off the record for 11 the final time for today at 4:24. Clear to talk. 12 (Whereupon, at 4:24 p.m., the deposition 13 of H. KEITH HENSON was concluded.) 14 15 16 _________________________ 16 H. KEITH HENSON 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 0204 01 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) 01 ) ss. 02 COUNTY OF SANTA CLARA ) 02 03 I, CAROL WIBLE TORRES, a Certified Shorthand 04 Reporter in and for the State of California, hereby 05 certify that the witness in the foregoing deposition, 06 H. KEITH HENSON, 07 was by me duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole 08 truth and nothing but the truth in the within-entitled 09 cause, that the foregoing is a full, true and correct 10 transcript of the proceedings had at the taking of 11 said deposition to the best of my ability. 12 _______________________________ 12 Carol Wible Torres, CSR #3391 13 Date: May 10, 1996 13 14 The signing of the deposition by the deponent 14 15 was conditionally waived at the time of the taking of 15 16 the deposition. 16 ___________________________ 17 17 Upon completion of the foregoing transcript, the 18 18 witness was notified it was ready for signature, but 19 19 the deposition was not signed by the witness for the 20 20 following reason:_____________________________________ 21 21 ______________________________________________________ 22 22 ______________________________________________________ 23 23 ______________________________________________________ 24 24 25 25 26 26