Q: This is the top of figure two, bottom of figure three. Are you seeing all this?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: And then the summary.
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen this before?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And when did you see it?
A: I saw it during the summer of 2000.I don't remember the exact
date that I saw it. It was during the summer.
Q: Okay. It was in the summer?
A: That's correct. I think I saw it towards the end of June or
beginning of July, but that's just a guess. It was in the summer.
Q: Okay. And same questions. Where did you get a copy of the
patent?
A: From the U.S. Patent Office.
Q: And -
A: Washington, D.C.
Q: Washington, D.C. And -
THE COURT: You got it?
THE WITNESS: Oh, no, that's where it came from.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): I'm asking you where you got it from.
A: It was sent to me.
Q: By?
A: I got it from one of our staff at our church in Los Angeles
who acquired it.
Q: Okay. And how did you come to see it exactly? How did you come
to know about it?
A: Well, a copy of it was sent to me.
Q: Okay. And when you received a copy of the patent did you read
it in its entirety?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Now, what -- in general terms what does the patent purport to
do?
A: It shows how a rocket could be launched -
MR. HARR: Your Honor, lack of foundation that he has expertise to
interpret that.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHWARZ: Withdrawn, your Honor. Withdrawn.
Q: When you saw the patent, in conjunction with everything else,
but that alone, how did that make you feel?
A: It made me feel frightened, because the man obviously knew
something about missiles. I mean, if he's got a patent on missiles, or
how to shoot missiles off, or how to put payloads in missiles, it
concerned me a great deal. Not a lot of people know how to do that sort
of thing. And a lot of people aren't threatening me with missiles. So
when I put those two things together -
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor -
MR. SCHWARZ: I'm asking -
MR. HARR: Beyond the scope of -
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Continue, please.How did it make you feel?
A: It made me feel frightened, frightened for me, frightened for
my wife.
Q: I meant continued -
A: Frightened for me, my wife who lives here with me in' the
valley, frightened for my staff. I have a person who's got experience
with setting off bombs, pyrotechnics, pipe bombs and various techniques
-
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, that's beyond -
MR. SCHWARZ: I agree.
MR. HARR: Ask that that be stricken.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes.
THE COURT: Granted.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So you were frightened, that's the answer?
A: Yes, I took it serious.
THE COURT: Excuse me, the answer is "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Now, all this information that we've
covered, the Great Mambo Chicken book, the patent, the postings, and
various other information that you received from the downtown church or
wherever that we've talked about before, what did it cause you to do?
Did you keep it to yourself?
A: Oh, no. No. I did two things.
Q: What did you do?
A: Well, the first thing I did was I contacted the sheriff's
office. And I provided the information to them as I
got it, because as you could see I was getting the information on a
daily basis. And finally -
THE COURT: That was the first thing that you did, was contact the
sheriff's office?
THE WITNESS: That's the first thing I did.
THE COURT: What was the second thing?
THE WITNESS: Second thing was I alerted my staff to the fact that
we had a person who had a history of setting - here exactly -- I briefed
all my staff, 750 staff, I told them, I says, "We have a person along
the highway who has a history of setting off bombs. Number two, he has
made various threats against the church, that he wants to destroy and
that he hates our religion. Number three --"
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, there is no basis that I've seen
to say that he hates the religion.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor -
MR. HARR: There's nothing in evidence to this point to show that.
MR. SCHWARZ: I asked him what he provided, what he told his
staff, your Honor.
THE COURT: You asked him what he did.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yeah, what did he do.
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARZ: So I think that's a fair answer.
Q: So what else did you do?
A: All right. So I explained to them his background, the fact
that he's got a history of -
THE COURT: Excuse me, you've explained his
background.
THE WITNESS: I briefed all our staff.
THE COURT: As you understood it.
THE WITNESS: As I understood it. In other words, based on the
information I had, this is what I explained. I said, "I am concerned, I
don't want anyone hurt. This person is out here, I don't know how long
he's going to be out here. I don't want you to go near the highway, and
I don't want you to get close to him, because I'm afraid he might throw
a bomb over the fence or do something like that." So what I did is, a
lot of the people on our staff, because we have 43 buildings on the
property, carry a beeper, a little message beeper. And usually the heads
of the different departments and sections all carry the beepers -
THE COURT: Excuse me, sir, what did you do?
THE WITNESS: Well, we would send out a message called "drill
activate." And it would show up on the beeper. You, like, have these
little messages, and the little message would come out "drill
activated." That means that Keith Henson was here at the apartments
standing outside the doors, that he was on the highway, and whenever the
staff would get a little message that said "drill activated," they knew
that he or people that were with him were out on the highway.
THE COURT: Excuse me. I think the question is what did you do.
Not what happened.
THE WITNESS: So I explained all this to the staff.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Yes. And then whenever he would show up -
THE COURT: Excuse me, that's what you did?
THE WITNESS: That's what I did.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Now, it's okay. Is this the first time
you've testified, sir? I mean aside, not from today, have you testified
before?
A: I've never done anything quite like this before.
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, nonresponsive.
THE COURT: Well, overruled. Let me explain something to you, sir.
And to the jury. This is a different surrounding than any place else.
When a question is asked it's more helpful if we have a brief answer. If
the attorney wants you to expand on it, he'll ask you to expand on it.
And I don't want you to think that I am trying to stop you from talking,
but I'm trying to keep the answers brief if possible. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: All right.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Okay. So your testimony is that you briefed your staff; did
you actually brief all 700 individually?
A: I briefed all 700 -
THE COURT: That calls for a "yes" or "no" answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Now, was among your staff was one of
the people that you briefed Hillary Dezotell?
A: Yes.
Q: Yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then was another person Bruce Wagoner?
A: Yes.
Q: The other complaining parties?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you briefed these two people did you provide them a
copy with the postings?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And did you provide them a copy of the patent and the Mambo
Chicken Book, et cetera?
A: Yes. I'm trying to think of who I showed the patent to. I
showed them the postings. I showed them this Mambo Chicken Book. And I
showed some of my staff the patent.
Q: Okay. So you allowed them to come to their own judgment?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you. Now, the last question that I have for you is this:
Why did you -- why did you go through all the trouble of doing that?
A: Well, I didn't want to make the same mistake again.
Q: What mistake is that?
A: Well, we had an earlier situation where we had what might
appear to be silly or foolish or joking type threats. And as a result
somebody got killed. Somebody got shot. And I didn't want that to happen
again. And I was not going to make that mistake again, and I was
determined not to make it again.
Q: What are you referring to?
A: Referring to the fact that a man one time took a little tiny tank and wound it up like this, and put a little sign
on it and said, "Next time it will be real." And it chugged through the
front door of our church, of one of our churches.
Q: Where?
A: Portland, Oregon.
Q: Then what happened?
A: All right. We took it to the police, explained to them that
this is a threat. They said there was nothing they could do, looked like
just a joke. He walked in later, shot Helen, who I've known for 25
years, shot Helen, bullet went through her shoulder, through her baby's
head in her womb, and she's paralyzed for life. And shot Reverend
Crandall who ran the church. And two other people. And I was not going
to have that happen again to my church. And I didn't want any of my
staff hurt -
THE COURT: All right. You've answered the question, sir.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. I don't think I have any further
questions for this witness.
THE COURT: All right. You may cross-examine.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARR:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Hoden. I believe I -- you were just asked if
you'd ever testified before, and I think your answer was something along
the lines of "nothing like this before"?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Isn't it true that you have in fact testified before -
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's cross-examination.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you have previously
testified in court?
A: I don't remember testifying -
THE COURT: Excuse me, can you answer that "yes" or "no"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you previously sued Mr.
Henson in 1998 -
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think it was -
Q. (By Mr. Harr): "Yes" or "no," sir?
A: Well, I don't think so, because -
THE COURT: The answer is you don't think so?
THE WITNESS: Well, what happened -
THE COURT: Excuse me, sir, is your answer you don't think so?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Can I clarify what I meant?
THE COURT: No.
THE WITNESS: I can't do that? Okay.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be abrupt.
THE WITNESS: No, you weren't. You're just telling me what I'm
supposed to do.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Do you remember retaining the law office of
Reed and Hellier to represent you in a case in 1998 in Riverside County?
A: Yes, Charles Schultz.
Q: Do you now remember testifying in that case?
A: No. We never got to be a case, because what happened was -
Q: "Yes" or "no," sir?
A: No, I don't. We would -
THE COURT: The answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: No. Well, I -
THE COURT: The answer is no?
THE WITNESS: That's right, no. It's no, yeah.
THE COURT: Okay, thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): You don't remember being cross-examined by Mr.
Grey Hamberry?
A: No, I do not. I remember the judge asked him -
THE COURT: The answer is you do not?
THE WITNESS: I do not. I'll get this right. I do not. I'm used to
talking too much.
THE COURT: Well, the tendency is to want to explain.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know. I want to do that.
THE COURT: We don't need you to explain unless the attorney says
something.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): You don't remember testifying, saying you
remember something about the effect that some druid something or other,
something to do with druid religion, and, "That's the best thing that
could happen to Scientology, just to totally have it wiped out
completely and I am here to basically accomplish that effect," you don't
remember stating that about Mr. Henson?
A: I remember saying that.
Q: So now you remember testifying in court in another matter?
A: I just -- I'm sorry. I'll just make it real brief. I didn't
think that was testifying. We were standing -- I never sat like this
before where -- it was a motion for a restraining order. I didn't think
it was a suit. Just at that time the sheriff's office recommended that I
do that. I went and did it. We stood way over there by the door. The
judge asked us some questions, and at that time he said that we don't
have enough evidence right now to proceed with the restraining order
against Mr. Henson like we do now. So that was that.
Q: So even though the Court indicated after you had said
basically the same thing that you've testified today, you didn't get a
restraining order; is that correct?
A: Well, he says, "You don't have enough evidence right now to do
that."
THE COURT: The witness has answered the question.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Thank you, Mr. Hoden.
A: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: Do I have a copy of this?
MR. HARR: I don't know.
MR. SCHWARZ: That's pretty objectionable. Your Honor, I don't
think I have a copy of this where he's reading this from.
MR. HARR: I didn't know if this was him. I haven't _
THE COURT: What do you want?
MR. SCHWARZ: I would like, if he's going to refer to it now I
would like to at least know what he's talking about.
THE COURT: You want to show it to Counsel?
MR. HARR: Sure, your Honor.
Q: Mr. Hoden, you previously indicated, I believe, that you've
read certain portions or perhaps all of the book entitled Great Mambo
Chicken and the Transhuman Condition?
THE COURT: That's compound, Counsel. Can you ask one part at a
time?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'd like to ask you some questions about the
Great Mambo Chicken book that you previously testified about, sir.
A: Okay.
Q: Did you read the cover of the book?
A: Sure.
Q: Did you read the part that says where it's free-wheeling and
riotously funny, L.A. Times?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you read about Mr. Henson's home life in there that was
described in the book?
A: I didn't read the whole book cover to cover, and I don't
remember -
THE COURT: The answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: The answer is "no."
Q. (By Mr. Harr): So you didn't read about the goats he has, the
wife he has?
A: I did read the section about the goats because I remember the
goats.
Q: And I guess you're aware that the lady that was - that you
referred to in reading this was Mr. Henson's ex-wife?
A: I gathered that, yes.
Q: Now, you read that it was stunning, I believe you were
referring to a bomb, "It was stunning, everybody agreed that it was a
very loud explosion and one of the best recreational bombs they had ever
seen," and then you didn't read the rest of the sentence; was there some
reason you didn't read the rest of the sentence?
A: I'd have to look at this.
Q: Sure, by all means. I'm on page 50.
A: Where it says, "It was stunning"?
Q: Yes. And you read up to "recreational bomb they had seen," and
then you didn't read the part after the comma, which says, "The Hensons
walked away easy winners of the fire festival that Sunday"?
A: That's right.
Q: Did you take into account that this was a social activity?
A: Yes. They were out there, it was a bomb -
THE COURT: The answer is "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yeah.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): There wasn't anything in the book about this
being an illegal activity, was there, that you read?
A: No.
Q: And at the time that this incident occurred perhaps was around
the 1970 time frame?
A: It's a little hard to tell, but I thought it sounded like it
was in the mid '70's, something like that.
Q: Okay. But the book itself probably was written in 1990; isn't
that correct?
A: Yeah. I think there's copywrite 1990 or '91, I forget which.
Q: So this is at least a ten-year-old book with perhaps 30 to
40-year-old information, 30-year-old information?
A: No, no. '75 is more like 25.
Q: Okay, 25-year-old information. Now, this activation system
that you had?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When you activated an alert isn't it true that not all the
people were notified?
A: I don't know how to answer that question.
THE COURT: You can't answer the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, all the people were notified.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): So were you the one that pushed the buttons to activate the alert system?
A: No.
Q: So every time you saw -- excuse me. Every time some person saw
Keith Henson the alert went off?
A: There was a -- a person designated to do that by me. And yes,
every time he saw Keith Henson on the highway or coming towards the
highway, he would type in "drill activated" into the beeper system and
it would just go out.
Q: It's probably going to take me a little bit of time, I'm going
to go through this as rapidly as I can.
A: Okay.
Q: Because the exhibits are numbered in such a way that I am
going to be -- given the time I'm not going to do that right now.
A: Okay.
Q: Isn't it true that you've called law enforcement out to Golden
Era regarding Mr. Henson's picketing on more than one occasion?
A: That's correct.
Q: How many times have you called law enforcement out to Golden
Era or that -- or your facility within the period of June -- May 1st of
2000 through July of 2000?
A: Throughout the month of May and throughout the month of June I
would say maybe ten times.
Q: Isn't it true that on the one occasion where the sheriff
showed up you refused to make a citizen's arrest on Mr. Henson?
A: Nope. That's not true.
Q: It's your testimony today that you have never refused to make
a citizen's arrest on Mr. Henson?
A: No. The officer arrested him and put him -
THE COURT: Excuse me, sir. The question is, did you refuse to
make a citizen's arrest?
THE WITNESS: Well, I was confused, sir, and if I can explain -
THE COURT: Can you rephrase the question so that the witness can
understand -
THE WITNESS: Because he was already arrested -
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Perhaps it was July, 2000 instead of June.
A: Yes, right.
Q: If you're not sure about June, how about July of 2000, did you
refuse to make a citizen's arrest on Mr. Henson for his picketing
activities in July of 2000?
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: No, not exactly, because when you arrest somebody --
he was already -
THE COURT: The answer is you don't understand?
THE WITNESS: Understand. I don't understand, because he was
already -
THE COURT: You've answered the question, sir.
THE WITNESS: Okay, sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): In the documents that you've read today, one of
the references that you read mentioned an M.C.B.M.; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you -
A: I don't know if I read that today. I guess I did read that
today, I'm sorry.
Q: Do you -- okay. And was it your testimony today that the
distance, and of course I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so
I'm sure you'll correct me, if there was a distance of about 15 yards
from where Mr. Henson was standing to the entrance of the tunnel that
you referred to in your testimony; is that correct?
A: The distance from the edge of the tunnel -- or from along the
highway where he was standing to the chapel was about 15 yards.
Q: I misunderstood your testimony.
A: Yeah.
Q: That was your testimony. In the Great Mambo Chicken Book where
Mr. Henson was talking about -- Mr. Henson was not talking about, but
where it referred to him blowing up a 200-pound bomb with -- that could
only be done with great difficulty, were you somehow thinking that he
was going to throw a 200-pound bomb that would only explode with great
difficulty?
A: Oh, no. I was thinking he -
THE COURT: The answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: The answer is "no."
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And isn't it true that it really didn't refer
to any other type of actual explosives device that was described in the
Mambo Chicken book?
A: Huh-uh. The book is replete with all the -
Q: Your answer was "no"?
A: Well, maybe I didn't understand the question.
Q: You've answered the question, I think.
THE COURT: Why don't you ask the question again, Counsel.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that the portion of the book that
you read where there was the big bang -
A: Ah, yes, okay.
Q: Wasn't that a 200-pound device?
A: That one section there dealt with just that big bomb, yes.
Q: The portion you read?
A: Yes.
Q: And it would only explode with great difficulty?
A: I guess. I think that's what it said, yeah.
Q: And that it was a recreational activity?
A: That's correct.
Q: I believe you read one portion of a report that said -- that
mentioned an eagle?
THE COURT: Counsel, if you have the specific document that you're
referring to, would you please allow the witness to look at it.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. I'm sure I have it here in my notes.
Well, let's refer to something I can find. How about the patent.
THE COURT: Sir, will you please be seated.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): It's my understanding from your testimony that you did in fact read the patent?
A: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Yes.
THE COURT: The reporter can't take down -
THE WITNESS: I mumbled there, I'm sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And this would include the fact that you read
any pictures or diagrams that were in the patent?
MR. SCHWARZ: Can you see it?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can see from here. I can see.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Maybe it will help if I put it up here. Okay.
In any of the -- did you have the impression, for example, from page --
the pages on the screen, it's the second page that's in the exhibit,
that in some way, shape or form an aircraft is required to do whatever
this patent does?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Do you have any information that Mr. Henson has a pilot's
license?
A: No, I do not.
MR. HARR: We might as well just go through these the way we've
gone through, if I can. Mr. Schwarz, do you have Exhibit 24 for
identification?
MR. SCHWARZ: The entire one?
MR. HARR: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: I think Madam Clerk has the entire document.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And when -- on this -- on the -- I should show this to you. Can I please have 24A?
MR. SCHWARZ: 24A, please.
MR. HARR: Thank you. Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HARR: Thank you.
Q: Mr. Hoden, I'm handing you what's previously been marked
Exhibit 24A, from which you've read.
A: Yes.
Q: And on that particular exhibit I don't believe we got into the
fact that this is an incomplete document. Do you -
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. Don't testify, just ask a
question.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Is 24A the full document that your read portion
came from?
A: No.
Q: Thank you. Your Honor, I apologize to the Court. I wasn't
expecting to be doing this. In any of the messages that you've read from
today in court, isn't it true that your name was never mentioned in any
of them?
A: No, none of the ones I read today.
Q: So it's accurate to say that your name was not in any of the
information you read today?
A: That I read here in court today, yes.
Q: And isn't it true that of the information you read here today, the names of the other two witnesses in
this case that are alleged to have been threatened, their name does not
appear, either; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And isn't it true that the site on which these appeared is not
a Scientology site?
A: Oh, no. No. It's anti-Scientology.
Q: So one would have to go to some site other than a Scientology
site in order to even be able to read this stuff?
A: That's correct, sir.
Q: When did you first read the Mambo Chicken Book?
A: In late 1997.
Q: So the information in there was not new to you during the
period of June 1st through September 1st, 2000; isn't that correct?
A: You're referring to the Mambo Chicken Book?
Q: Yes, I am.
A: That's correct.
Q: And isn't it true that you knew years before June 1st, 2000
that Mr. Henson had stated publicly that he wouldn't mind seeing
Scientology destroyed?
A: Yes. I first heard those words in 1997.
Q: So that's not new information?
A: Oh, no.
Q: And isn't it true that Mr. Henson to your knowledge has never
attempted to climb the fence at Scientology property?
A: Oh, no. There's a couple of times he's leaning over trying to get over that fence.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, sir?
THE WITNESS: There's several times he was trying to jump over the
fence.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Your testimony was that he was trying to jump
over the fence?
A: I don't know what he was doing, he was trying to lean over the
fence, reach over -
THE COURT: He leaned over the fence?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. The police came out and said, "Stay away from
the fence, you can't go up to the fence."
THE COURT: You've answered the question.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): How high is that fence?
A: The fence over the tunnel -- well, it's a rock wall this high,
and the fence is about three feet high. So when you stand up against it,
the top of the fence comes right about where your nose is. In fact, I
could put my nose on it and look over it.
Q: Isn't it true you put a green tarp over part of that fence?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: No. There is a green tarp over -
THE COURT: The answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: Well, depends which tunnel we're talking about.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. One of the tunnels?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Have you ever put a green tarp over the fence
that would block the view of one of the tunnels?
A: The east tunnel.
Q: And could you please point out for the jury which tunnel that
would be?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: On your exhibit there.
A: Yes. The east tunnel is just this tunnel here where all these
buildings are, there's a little tarp. Green tarp. And there's also a
green tarp that goes right over here.
Q: And how high from the -- okay. Maybe you could describe the
fence where you said there is a wall and then the fence?
A: Well, if we can look at that picture I can show you.
Q: All right. Do you recall what exhibit that was, Mr. Schwarz? I
think it was 20 -
MR. SCHWARZ: Here. I don't know which one it is.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, I'm going to hand you what's been
marked Exhibit 29 for identification and Exhibit 28 for identification.
I think you previously testified about both of these, and I'd like you
to please select the one, if you can, to demonstrate the tunnel that
you're referring to in your testimony now.
A: Well, you mean the east tunnel?
Q: If that's how you would prefer to refer to it, yes.
A: Yeah, well, this one. That's this one.
Q: Okay. Thank you. That's been marked as Number 29 for
identification. Thank you.
A: That's the east one. That's the east tunnel.
Q: Okay. So you -- could you -- okay. We see the one side of the
tunnel there?
A: This is the south side.
Q: The south side of the east tunnel?
A: Looking north.
Q: Looking north. That would be toward the mountains?
A: That's right.
Q: We have the rock wall in view there over the tunnel; is that
the rock wall you were referring to that the fence is located on?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And then the fence is -- how is the fence
constructed then relative to the rock wall?
THE COURT: If you know, sir.
THE WITNESS: How is the fence constructed? Is that the question?
THE COURT: I'm not sure I understand that question, Counsel.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Is it cemented into the rock? Is there a hole
drilled in it to put a metal post in to hold the fence up? I understand
that the property management was one of your areas of expertise, so I
was wondering if you could please tell us what the property -- how it's
constructed.
A: Yes.
THE COURT: If you know.
THE WITNESS: I do know. This one is not the one with the rock
wall. The reason is, on top of that rock wall that you're looking at is
where the fence is, which is the bottom of the fence. There's dirt that
goes all the way up. So in other words, another one has a rock wall
partway -
THE COURT: I think the question is this one.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. So it's just, you know, the fence is, you have
a little post, you know. You put the post in about every eight feet,
it's got cement, and then you have a fence, and then a post, then it
runs along the top of the tunnel.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): How tall are you, sir?
A: Five foot nine and three quarters.
Q: Okay. Thank you. And you indicated that I believe that when
you stand up there it hits you about right here, the record to indicate
that it was the middle -
A: About right here.
Q: About your nose?
A: Yeah, about your nose.
Q: You didn't previously testify that it was the middle of your
head?
A: Well, I don't know. It's about in here. If I stand up straight
like this, it hits my nose. If I'm not it comes in here, just bottom
line.
Q: And you put a green tarp over this area; is that correct?
A: Over this tunnel.
Q: Yes.
A: Over just -- I'd had it. I says, "I'm just gonna put a little
tarp over there, because I'm tired of seeing him standing over our
tunnel." So that's why I put the tarp over there.
Q: So you put the little tarp over there?
A: Yeah.
Q: Thank you. So if you put the tarp up you can't see him; right?
A: I can't see him, that's right. It's on the east tunnel.
Q: And I believe it was your testimony that you -- part of your
operation is to develop films?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Do you have surveillance cameras in the area of these tunnels?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any tape of him trying to climb over the fence?
A: No. I saw him.
Q: You make movies there; right?
A: Down by the garage.
Q: Did you make movies there?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: Do you have portable cameras?
A: Oh, yes, many.
Q: Do you have video of him supposedly glaring at people when
they come to work?
A: I don't have a video of him glaring.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, I'd like to hand you what's been
previously marked as Exhibit 2 for identification.
THE COURT: What's your question, Counsel?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): The last line on there that I believe you read?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Says something to the effect, "Now paren asterisk paren has to
watch out for eagles as well as cruise missiles?"
A: That's correct.
Q: And while I'm no expert at English by any stretch, isn't "has"
a singular verb?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: And didn't you previously indicate that this sign to the best
of your knowledge refers to I believe his name is Mr. Miscavige?
A: That's correct.
Q: So that isn't your name; is it?
A: No, it's not my name.
Q: And it isn't the name of the other two people who are alleged
to be threatened in this case; is that correct?
A: No, it's not.
Q: Now, this talks about watching out for eagles and talks about
cruise missiles?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you somehow believe that an eagle is going to be a weapon?
A: I don't know what he means by "eagle."
Q: In the Great Mambo Chicken book did you read anything about
his falconry skills, Mr. Henson's falconry skills?
A: No, I did not.
Q: They're not in there to the best of your knowledge; is that
correct?
A: I didn't read the whole book, I don't know. In the portions I
read I didn't read anything about him dealing with eagles.
Q: But you believe he might have the capability to use an eagle
as a weapon?
A: I was looking at the cruise missile to be honest with you,
sir.
Q: Okay. So when you stated your concern, even though you read
the part about the eagle, you weren't concerned about the eagle?
A: I was concerned about the whole thing because I don't know
what "eagle" means. I don't know what "eagle" means.
THE COURT: Okay. You've answered the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Did you read anything in the Great Mambo
Chicken book about Mr. Henson having any expertise with a cruise
missile?
A: No.
Q: Did you see anything in the postings that you referred to today indicating that Mr. Henson has any expertise
with a cruise missile?
A: Not in the postings that I read today.
Q: Have you ever seen a cruise missile?
A: Just on T.V. No, I haven't.
Q: Do you know what the capabilities of a cruise missile are?
A: Sure.
Q: What are the capabilities of a cruise missile?
A: Well, they can go quite a distance. They can probably go
several thousand miles. And they're quite accurate, and that's about
what I know.
Q: So you think Mr. -- even though you don't know that Mr. Henson
has any expertise in cruise missiles, you think he might be able to fly
a cruise missile a long ways and hit something like this?
A: I think he could fly a missile a long ways and hit something
with it, absolutely, without a doubt.
Q: So he can blow up kerosene and ammonium nitrate; is that
correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You don't know that he can even fly an airplane; is that
correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you don't know that he has any experience with a cruise
missile, but you believe he can hit Gold Base or some other base with a
cruise missile?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor -
THE WITNESS: I believe he could hit the Gold Base with a missile,
yes, I do. I do.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): With a cruise missile?
A: Well, I don't know if he'd use a cruise missile or not. I
don't know. I don't know if he has a cruise missile.
MR. HARR: I believe you inquired about 17 without a redaction.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yeah. I did the whole thing. There it is.
MR. HARR: Your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, I'd like to hand you Exhibit Number
17 for identification.
A: Do you want this one back?
Q: Sorry, Mr. Hoden, did you say something?
A: If you want the other one back.
Q: Yes, I do, thank you.
A: Sure.
Q: I believe you previously read a portion of a posting that was
described by -- as a posting by somebody else on the range of a pluton
M.R.B.M. (deleted for purpose of national security)?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you know what the range of a -- do you know what an
M.R.B.M. is?
A: It's some kind of a missile. I forget which -- I remember I
looked up at the time to find out what an M.R.B.M. was, because when I
first read it I didn't know what it was.
Q: And do you know what the range of it is?
A: I can't remember.
Q: Did you read it?
A: I got this sheet that had on the top "M.R.B.M." and it had a
whole lot of things about -- you know, like a description of what the
missile could do and all those things. And I can't remember -- I looked
down it quickly, and it said it was capable of carrying massive
payloads, you know, with bombs and that sort of thing. And I didn't -- I
don't remember the distance that this thing could go.
Q: Okay. Massive payloads, massive; how much is massive, do you
recall?
A: Well, it could carry a nuclear warhead. That's pretty massive
in my book. In other words, it's going to blow up more than a shack, or
some kind of -- whatever they stick in it is what they stick in it, I
suppose. But in other words, it was some kind of government missile, war
missile. For blowing things up, killing people, that's what it was.
Q: Government missile?
A: Some kind of government missile.
Q: Okay. Do you know where Mr. Henson lives, what city?
A: Lives up near San Francisco somewhere.
Q: And to your knowledge have any Scientologists ever picketed
his home?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I heard that there was some people from our church up in San Francisco -
THE COURT: The answer is "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And isn't it true that some of that picketing
took place between May of 2000 and August of 2000?
A: I don't know when it took place. It took place, I heard about
it one time in the summer somebody went up there and did something like
that from our church in -- I don't -- I don't remember -- some church.
We have quite a few in the San Francisco area.
Q: So -
A: I didn't see it, I heard it. I heard that something like that
happened.
Q: To your knowledge have members of the church of Scientology
ever picketed Mr. Henson's wife's place of employment?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Does that mean I answer it?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I heard that, too.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And isn't it true that you have in fact sent
some people out in front of Golden Era to the road area to stay real
close to Mr. Henson when he's out there?
A: I hired two security people.
THE COURT: The answer is "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true they usually stay about five feet from Mr. Henson?
A: Well, I think it's more like five to ten.
Q: Pretty close?
A: Yes. The police suggest I keep them five to ten feet away.
THE COURT: Excuse me, the answer was between five and ten feet?
THE WITNESS: Five and ten.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And the police also say that he has a right to
be there?
A: Absolutely.
Q: So it's unlikely, isn't it, that -
THE COURT: Counsel, the form of the question is going to lead us
to an objectionable question.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Isn't it true that Mr. Henson always or almost always has a
picket sign when he's in some proximity to Golden Era of the events that
you have observed?
A: Yeah. I would say maybe 80 percent of the time at least that I
saw. I could only talk about what I saw. I know when he was at the
apartments -
THE COURT: That's all we're interested in, just what you saw.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. But never at the -- where we live.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Okay. Well, please don't think I'm trying to
give you a hard time here, but you've never seen him carrying a missile
with him; have you?
A: No.
Q: And he never said, "I'm going to shoot a missile at Mr. Hoden"
in any of these postings?
A: Well, I -- I can't agree with you on that point.
Q: So you have seen a posting of the items that we've talked
about today that says, "I'm going," "I, Keith Henson, am going to shoot
a missile at Mr. Hoden," quote, unquote?
A: No. Let me explain my answer -
Q: I do believe that answer would be "no."
A: No, well, if somebody -
THE COURT: The answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what to say, your Honor, just -- no.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And I take it you have observed Mr. Henson's
clothing on the occasion when you've seen him out there, he's been
wearing clothes; right?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Regular pockets on his pants?
A: Pockets on his pants.
Q: Regular -- did he have a -- did he ever have a backpack on?
A: Yes.
Q: Were your security people right by him?
A: Like I said, five to ten feet away.
Q: And you got no reports that he was carrying 200-pound bombs in
a backpack, I take it?
A: Nobody ever reported that to me.
Q: And I take it that you never got any reports from the people who were five to ten feet away from him that
he was ever carrying a weapon in the nature of a firearm or a knife?
A: They didn't know what he was carrying in the bag.
Q: So I take it you never got a report that he was carrying one?
A: No.
Q: I believe I still have not retrieved that exhibit.
A: Yeah, I got it here.
MR. HARR: Thank you. No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Redirect.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: Counsel -- with all due respect to Counsel, that's his job, he
cut you off when you were trying to explain something. So I'm going to
follow up with some questions. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: You indicated that you were trying to explain how everyone was
notified with respect to Mr. Henson's presence; what were you trying to
-- what was the end of that sentence?
A: Well, that there was various people whose job it was that if
they were notified they would then notify someone else. So when the
beeper went off, that might have notified a hundred and let's say 60
people. No, more like 125 people. About 125 people. And then they would
tell the other people that, "Hey, listen, don't walk by the road, the
guy's out there right now," or whatever they would
say to each other. And then when he left another beep got sent to tell
them that the drill's over.
Q: Okay. So it was disseminated, you had some kind of chain of
command?
A: System, yeah.
Q: System. Now, Mr. Harr talked about some kind of - you didn't
sign a citizen's arrest. Give us that story, because I didn't understand
what you were saying.
A: Yes, sir. What happened was Officer Rowe came out, we showed
him all these evidence and all these postings. He went out there,
handcuffed Mr. Henson and took him to jail. About an hour and-a-half
later I got a call back from -- they arrested him. So. And I got a call
back, and this is what I didn't understand earlier, Judge. I got a call
back from Officer Rowe. He says, "Do you want to do a citizen's arrest"?
I says, "I thought you already arrested him." He says, "Well, I did, but
do you want to do a citizen's arrest"? I says, "Well, I don't know, I
thought he was already arrested." He says, "Well, what we could do is we
could just send this matter to the D.A. and then have him bring charges.
Or you can do a citizen's arrest." I said, "Send it to the District
Attorney's Office and have them press charges." And that's what Mr. Rowe
did.
Q: Okay. So it's not as though the officer came to you and says,
"This is Mr. Henson, what do you want me to do with him," you're going
to sign a citizen's arrest like if he shoplifted something?
A: No, no, no. He took him off in the black and white car.
Q: Cuffed him, took him away?
A: That's correct.
Q: So that was Deputy Rowe's decision at that point?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Mr. Hoden, Mr. Harr is right, there is no posting in any
of those -- your name does not appear in any of the postings -
THE COURT: Is that a question?
MR. SCHWARZ: It's a comment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's limit it to questions.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
Q: Why are you afraid if the postings don't mention you by name?
A: Well, one, my wife works there, I didn't want anything bad to
happen to my wife. Also, too, if a big bomb goes off and it's aimed at
you, and it's gigantic, it's also going to get me. So there was a
personal fear that I was going to get hurt. But also, too, my main
responsibility is to make sure that things are safe for my staff to do
what they do in the church. And therefore, there was a fear for them.
Because it's not as if one person, one of my staff is more important
than another and it's okay for this one to get killed but not okay for
this one. In other words, they're all important to me.
Q: But the question is, sir -
A: Sorry.
Q: -- why are you personally afraid?
A: Well, I'm more up front, all right. I'm a possible target
because I am who I am.
THE COURT: All right. You've answered that.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. So you work at Gold Base, you've
testified before?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, were these threats -- well, Golden Era, rather. Mr.
Harr made a question about something referring to Gold Base; how do you
take that, by the way?
A: Well, it's all -
MR. HARR: I'm sorry, I'm not clear on that.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. I'll rephrase. I'll rephrase.
Q: Mr. Harr in his question referred to a term "Gold Base," and
he -- there was no explanation what he meant by that. So what is Gold
Base?
A: I don't know. I think it's part of this whole -
THE COURT: Your answer is you don't know?
THE WITNESS: I don't know what it's referring to, yeah, you're
right.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So you don't believe that it's referring to
Golden Era Productions?
THE COURT: Counsel, he's answered the question.
THE WITNESS: He's referring to it in a derogatory fashion, that's
all I'm saying.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): All right. Listen to the question I'm
asking. Listen to the question I'm asking. All right. When Mr. Harr
referred to "Gold Base," what do you think he was
referring to?
A: Church of Scientology Golden Era Productions.
Q: That's what I'm asking. Not how someone else refers to it or
how you refer to it, but how you understood that term.
A: That's right.
Q: Now, did you -- we've gone over these postings. Were any of
the postings, did they direct you to a particular location?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Okay. And then the buses, did that mention where that was at?
Where did all these events occur? When he was reporting about the buses
and you read stuff like that -
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, leading.
MR. SCHWARZ: I'm simply asking what -
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): What was he referring to?
A: The postings -
THE COURT: If you know.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know. He was referring to over the different
tunnels, he's referring to the chapel and the other buildings -
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Generally wise what are we talking about?
A: All at the Church of Scientology, yes.
Q: That's you're afraid because he's referring to the Church of
Scientology?
A: That's correct, where I work.
Q: Got it. Now, in posting number two, what's been previously
been marked as Exhibit Number 2 about the paren and the little asterisk,
you said that it was to your understanding it refers to David Miscavige?
A: That's right.
Q: Again, who is David Miscavige?
A: He is the ecclesiastical leader of the church.
Q: A threat to David Miscavige, why would that make you afraid?
A: Well, if you have somebody that you know and you like and you
hear about somebody wants to blow them up with a missile, that's just a
natural reaction to be afraid for them, afraid for anybody around them.
Q: I'll rephrase. Is Mr. Miscavige a Scientologist?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Okay. And the threat was against Mr. Miscavige?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, that's a conclusion. That hasn't
been determined that it's a threat.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Is the posting regarding Mr. Miscavige?
A: That's correct.
Q: He is a Scientologist?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you a Scientologist?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: Okay. Would that cause you concern?
A: Yes, it would.
THE COURT: Counsel, let us take our afternoon recess now. The
Court wants to do a little bit of research. And we'll take our lunch
recess, get back here at 1:30. We've got a chance to get a little bit
further, but not too much further away from the court for lunch. Please
don't discuss the case. We'll see you back here at 1:30. Thank you very
much. Court's in recess.
(The jury exited the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Counsel, you can approach.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let me talk about something.Here, Counsel.Let me ask,
have you, both of you drafted any instructions as yet?
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor -
THE COURT: I don't think we'll be through today.
MR. SCHWARZ: No. I have -- I have some instructions, but Mr. Harr
-
MR. HARR: Most of them are going to be standard, address the
issue. There are a couple we are going to have to draft, agree and
disagree about, but most of them will be the standard instructions.
THE COURT: Well, I don't want to take time from the trial to do
that. I want to do that, I mean, the Court will be dark on Monday. But I
think that I'd like to have you submit what you agree to and what you
disagree about in terms of the instructions, submit it on Tuesday
morning, and the Court will review it and make a determination as to
which it will receive, and which it will give, and which it will not. How long do you think -- was this the longest witness?
MR. SCHWARZ: This was the very longest witness, your Honor,
because of all the documents.
THE COURT: Yes, I understand. And how much longer do you think
the other witness -
MR. SCHWARZ: Well, we have the police officers, that won't take
very much time. And we have a couple of victims. But we're not going to
go through the entire documents for the Court's -- obviously we're not
going to talk -- we're going to talk about it in general terms. So it
should be rather fast at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if it's
possible we could actually get done today with the People's side.
THE COURT: Counsel, are you planning to put on a defense? Let's
leave it.
MR. HARR: Well, what I -
THE COURT: Excuse me. I don't even want to go there.
MR. HARR: It wasn't about the defense. It was about the issue of
the -- excuse me, your Honor, if you were going to -
THE COURT: No, I just -- I want you to have the jury instructions
by Tuesday morning.
MR. HARR: Will do, your Honor.
MR. SCHWARZ: Absolutely. We'll have it done.
THE COURT: I was just inquiring more by curiosity than anything
else when you intended to be finished.
MR. HARR: I rested my cross-examination today because of the last
minute notice on these redacted items and I knew we had to go, and I'm
not objecting to that now.
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. You have over the noon hour to
propound any questions that you want on rebuttal.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor, I'll do that.
THE COURT: Okay?
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's go to lunch.
MR. HARR: I don't believe I've given this to Mr. Schwarz
officially.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yeah, can I -
THE COURT: Yeah. You might want to formulate some questions.
(Noon recess taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of
the jury.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon. Would you call Mr. Hoden in, please.
THE DEPUTY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Good afternoon.
THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
THE COURT: Have a seat. Counsel.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Good afternoon, Mr. Hoden.
A: Good afternoon.
Q: I take it your lunch was okay?
A: It was very good.
Q: Okay. Just some points that Mr. Harr covered that I just want
to go over with you. Okay?
A: Sure.
Q: Excellent. Now, Mr. Harr brought up in cross-examination about
the fact that there have been some picketing at his house; do you recall
that?
A: I remember him asking me questions about that.
Q: Right. Now, my question to you is, did anybody at Golden Era
Production or the staff at Golden Era Productions direct there to be
picketing at Mr. Henson's house, or his wife's house, or anything like
that?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Okay.
A: This was up in San Francisco or someplace.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether the church up in San Francisco -- is
there, first of all is there a church you have in San Francisco?
A: Yes, there's several.
Q: Is it like Golden Era Productions?
A: Oh, no. There's only one Golden Era Productions, because we
are the film and sound studio for the church. The rest are just
churches. What we do is, we do the instructional film, say like a film
on education, or drug abuse, handling, or something, we would send it to
the different churches. So films we produce here certainly get sent up
to the churches in the San Francisco area.
Q: So to make an analogy, it would be, like, a local chapel or something to that nature? .
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, did anybody at the staff of any of those churches
direct there be picketing against Mr. Henson?
THE COURT: Would Counsel approach, please, for a moment with the
reporter.
(The following proceedings were held at sidebar.)
THE COURT: What is the relevancy of this line of questioning?
Offer of proof?
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor, Mr. Harr asked -
THE COURT: I know what he asked.
MR. SCHWARZ: -- on cross-examination -
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARZ: I should be allowed to cross-examine, rehabilitate.
MR. SCHWARZ: I can give you an answer on the relevancy issue,
your Honor.
THE COURT: What is that?
MR. SCHWARZ: I can give you an answer on the relevancy issue if
that's -
THE COURT: Well, let me hear.
MR. SCHWARZ: I'm following up, your Honor, on his -- he's making
the implication that they also picket -- that -
THE COURT: Who also pickets?
MR. SCHWARZ: That the church -- that the Scientologists picket
Mr. Henson's house, that's what he said. That's what Mr. Harr
cross-examined on. I objected, but it was allowed to
come in. Now I have to be able to rehabilitate him and say that's not
from the church, it's from the local parishioners, your Honor, so it's
not as though -
THE COURT: You're saying the local parishioners did it, but does
he know that?
MR. SCHWARZ: That's what he's going to testify to. But they have
nothing to do with that. That's like, you know, someone that -
THE COURT: Well, don't give me a someone. What I'm interested in
is what this witness is going to testify that he knows for a fact, that
the local church -
MR. SCHWARZ: Did not authorize, did not, like, sanction some type
of massive picket, no, he will say that.
THE COURT: Well, I know he can say that, I know he will say it.
My question is, does he know that for a fact?
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes. From his personal knowledge, your Honor. I
mean, this is a high level, you know, person who runs Golden Era
Productions -
THE COURT: I'm not worried about Golden Era, Counsel -
MR. SCHWARZ: I understand that.
THE COURT: I don't care about Golden Era at this moment.
MR. SCHWARZ: Right.
THE COURT: What I'm concerned with is the relevancy of whether or
not he knows of his own knowledge that the local church went out and
picketed.
MR. SCHWARZ: I will put it in those terms.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, as long as we're here on the -- with the
reporter so we don't have to make another trip, can I take up another
matter, please?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. HARR: Before we broke for lunch I indicated to the Court that
I still had some additional questions that I'd like to ask regarding
those messages, or the postings. And because Mr. Schwarz said he was
going to have an objection, I was wondering if we could take that up
now.
THE COURT: What is your objection?
MR. SCHWARZ: My objection, your Honor, is that it's outside the
scope of -- so long as it's within the scope of redirect. If it's
outside the scope, your Honor, then he's not entitled to bring up new
matters. We have to get this trial to go, and that's the evidentiary --
that's evidence.
THE COURT: Yeah, I understand the objection, Counsel. I'm going
to overrule the objection. I'm going to allow him to question on that.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. SCHWARZ: Even though it's outside -- is that your ruling -
THE COURT: Counsel, would you please not question the Court's
ruling? When the Court makes a ruling -
MR. SCHWARZ: Of course.
THE COURT: -- it intends that the ruling stand.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. Thank you.
(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of the jury.)
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Mr. Hoden?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, to your own personal knowledge do you know whether or not
the staff at these local churches in San Francisco directed picketing
against Mr. Henson?
A: I know that they didn't.
Q: You know that from your own knowledge?
A: Sure, because I checked.
Q: Okay. And so who were these picketers?
A: They were members I guess of the church up there. He's done
about 238 pickets in front of all the churches up and down the coast of
California, so -
THE COURT: Counsel, just a moment, please. I don't know what he
just said. Did he say that he did picketing?
MR. SCHWARZ: No, he did not say that, your Honor. He's saying,
he's referring to Mr. -
THE COURT: Then it's irrelevant, Counsel. Ask the witness the
question that you want to ask him.
MR. SCHWARZ: I will, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Who were these picketers?
A: I don't know who they were.
THE COURT: You've answered the question, sir.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So -- but they were not part of the staff?
A: No.
Q: That's all I wanted to know. Thank you. Did you tell anybody
up in northern California to picket Mr. Henson?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Now, on cross you talked about Mr. Henson's clothing, about
the fact that he carried a backpack?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: And the fact that he wasn't carrying a 200-pound atomic bomb
or something to that nature?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Now, were you concerned about the backpack though?
A: Sure.
Q: Why were you concerned?
A: Because he could put pipe bombs in there or other small
incendiary devices, because I have read that he has made pipe bombs and
taught others how to make pipe bombs.
Q: Okay. And so that's what gave you cause for concern?
A: Yeah. Or it could have been a gun in there. I didn't know what
was in there.
Q: Okay. And Mr. Harr also suggested to you that, you know,
whether or not Mr. -- whether or not you really believe Mr. Henson had
in fact a cruise missile; are you really concerned about Mr. Henson
having a cruise missile?
A: I'm concerned about him having a missile and being involved in
sending it aimed at one of our buildings.
THE COURT: The question was, are you concerned about Mr. Henson having a cruise missile?
THE WITNESS: Sure.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Is there anything that gives you more
concern?
A: Yes. The fact that he would have a bomb or a gun or some other
explosives in one of -- in his backpacks or a fanny pack that he used to
carry, and that he would throw that over the fence, or shoot somebody,
or do something to hurt one of my staff. That's what I was worried
about. I was also worried about missiles. I don't know the name of the
missiles necessarily that he would use, because he's mentioned several
different types of names. So I was worried about the missiles.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. I don't have anything further. Thank you, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Counsel?
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARR:
Q: Mr. Hoden, did the -- I believe you testified that the Los
Angeles office gave you the information that you've testified about
today as far as information on Mr. Henson?
A: That's correct.
Q: You had some previous knowledge, obviously, but the stuff that
we're talking about in the postings, you received that from the Los
Angeles office?
A: That's correct.
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