Q: Do you know if the Los Angeles office issued an all points bulletin to all northern or southern California
or any northern or southern California organizations of Scientology not
to go to his house because he might blow them up?
A: I don't know what the Los Angeles office did.
Q: Do you know if the Los Angeles office issued a bulletin not to
go to Mrs. Henson's work because Mr. Henson might be there and he might
blow them up?
A: I don't know what they did in Los Angeles.
Q: Did you -- I won't ask that question.
A: Okay.
Q: I have a couple more questions, if I might, about some of the
postings that we've previously discussed.
A: Okay.
Q: I'm hoping this will be efficient. So I'm going to hand you
certain items that I am going to read. And then if this doesn't work
we'll try something else. But going back and forth fumbling around
didn't work very well this morning, so let's try something else here.
A: Okay.
MR. HARR: I'd request permission to approach the witness, your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, I'm going to hand you what have been
marked previously for identification as 24A, 24, 8A, 8, 20A, 20, 9A, 9,
23A, 23, 18A, 18, 19A, 19, 25A, 25.
THE COURT: What do you want him to do with that, Counsel?
MR. HARR: I'd like him to hold onto them, and I'm going to try to go in that same order so we can do this as quickly
as possible.
THE COURT: Is there a general question you can ask?
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Mr. Hoden, I believe you testified this morning regarding
Exhibit 24A, and you read certain portions of that document?
A: Yes.
Q: I'd ask if you would please now switch to Exhibit 24, which is
a -- for identification which was previously authenticated by the Court.
And I would ask you if Exhibit 24 for identification is in fact the
entire posting that you read an excerpt from this morning entitled 24A.
A: Let me check. Yes. The -
THE COURT: The answer is "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'd like to read a portion from this. It's the
last paragraph of this, being 24.
A: Okay.
Q: "Scientologists as distinguished from cult management are not
a problem. In fact, they are abused by C, little o, capital S, and would
be much better off without it. If they believe in Xenu, or the
effectiveness of auditing, or think they are invested with space
goodies, I don't care." Did you take that -- unquote. Doesn't that
indicate to you that Mr. Henson is not interested in trying to deprive
Scientologists of their right to practice their religion?
A: No.
THE COURT: All right. You've answered the question.
MR. HARR: Thank you.
Q: If I could ask you to please flip to 8A and 8.To try to
dispense with some of this, I believe you read from 8A this morning, and
I would ask that you would please refer to 8 for identification, which
has been previously authenticated by the Court. And please let me know
when you've had a chance to do that.
A: In other words, you want me to look over this Number 20 --
Number 8?
Q: I would like you to please look at 8A to confirm that's what
you read from this morning, and then I'd like you to look at 8 to
confirm, if you can, that that's the full document that you read an
excerpt from this morning.
A: Okay. Yes. This one, 8 is the full one, and 8A is the one that
had the smaller part.
Q: Thank you. I believe in some previous testimony you'd
indicated that, correct me obviously if I'm wrong, that you considered
certain of these postings to be reports after the fact from Mr. Henson?
A: That's correct.
Q: Is this one of the items that you considered to be one of the
reports after the fact from Mr. Henson?
A: Yes. By that, I mean, he would go out there one day and then -
THE COURT: Excuse me, sir, if you -
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. All right.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'd like please to invite your attention to the
paragraph at the -- near the top of the page which begins with "A big."
A: I see that.
Q: And I would like to read if I might. "A big change today from
yesterday, something like one in six of them are now looking frankly at
my sign. The sign I show them is either the 'Doubting is not a crime,'"
and I can't read the rest of it for reasons that are not to be
disclosed. Did you read that portion of the message?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Isn't it true that you were concerned that certain
Scientologists might get information that was contrary to what you might
believe as an important value in your tradition?
A: No.
Q: I'd like to invite your attention to the paragraph that is in
parenthesis a little bit in the top half of the page, starts with a
paren, goes, "I can't."
A: Yes, I found that.
Q: I'd like to read that. "I can't help but wonder --" and again,
this is to be considered as Mr. Henson's words, I believe. "I can't help
but wonder if Gold Base will be turned into an exhibit like the
historical Shaker places." Do you know what Shaker places are?
A: I have no idea. When I read that I didn't know what that
meant.
THE COURT: Excuse me, the answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: No, yeah.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Last paragraph beginning with "They," and again
I can't read all of this paragraph. It's not an intentional oversight.
"They complained to the highway patrol again today, so when the officer
came out, discussed it at them, he got a handful of Xenu fliers. I got
his name, Officers Lubes and Dopp, good guys, very professional. Gave me
good advice about picketing that location which I will pass on to anyone
who wants to take a day or two out there," unquote. My question is,
didn't that indicate to you that Mr. Henson is a law-abiding person
trying to -
THE COURT: That calls for a conclusion on the part of this
witness.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Did you take that into consideration in
considering your position that he is trying to be threatening?
A: Absolutely not, because I talked to Officer Lubes that's
mentioned in there.
THE COURT: Your answer is "no"?
THE WITNESS: What's the question? I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Would you repeat the question for him please, Madam
Reporter?
(Record read.)
THE COURT: The answer was?
THE WITNESS: I don't understand that question.
THE COURT: Why don't you rephrase the question.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Did you read that portion of the exhibit?
A: I did.
Q: I take it that had no impact on your previous testimony?
A: Oh, none whatsoever.
Q: Thank you. Mr. Hoden, if you could please now switch to the
folders that hold 20A and 20.
A: Okay.
Q: Without going into a -- you read a -- excuse me, 20 is a
previously authenticated document by the Court. In the second paragraph
there you read certain information, I'm going to paraphrase, there was a
reference in there about housing areas.
A: I don't know if we're looking at the same document. Mine
starts with, "I stopped on my way."
Q: That's 20A. You're exactly in the right place.
A: Okay, good.
Q: And I am -- I invite your attention to 20 now at this time.
You read from 20A, and I would ask you, is 20 the full text of the
redacted 20A?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Thank you. You did not read this portion, I would like you --
I would like to ask you a question after I read it in quotes, "I did
another picket for an hour or so this morning ending at 10:00 or 10:30.
Another entheta kept me away from picketing --"
MR. SCHWARZ: Counsel, I don't know where we are.
MR. HARR: Pardon me. The part that you redacted, right where he left off.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): "I had walked less than a hundred yards from my
car, which was parked beyond the east overpass, when I looked back to
wave at traffic and saw two guys walking toward me." I'm going to skip -
A: I'm trying to find where you are. I don't know where you are.
Q: Okay. That would be a good thing for me to let you know. Okay.
I'm down, I believe would be the second full paragraph of Exhibit 20 for
identification. That begins -
THE COURT: Exhibit 20?
MR. HARR: Exhibit 20. Beginning well -
THE WITNESS: I don't know what page of it.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Excuse me, page one. Page one.
A: Oh, okay. Okay. I'm on page one now.
Q: I apologize, they aren't numbered. It's just the first page, I
believe, of the document.
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: And the excerpt, one of the excerpts that you read this
morning I believe is in the second paragraph which begins, "Well, it was
not to be --" you read the part that started in mid sentence, "I stopped
on my way"?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Ending with a question mark there in that same
paragraph?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Then it continues. "Anyway, I did another picket for an hour or so this morning ending at 10:00 or 10:30,
another entheta kept me away from picketing until later afternoon, 4:00
or 4:30. I walked less than 100 yards from my car, which was parked
beyond the east overpass, when I looked back to wave at traffic and saw
two guys walking toward me." I'm going to skip the next sentence. New
paragraph. "I profited from Bob's experience. They threatened me, got in
my face, and started bull baiting me," in parenthesis "child molester,
et cetera, per parishioners dot org," end paren. "What they were after
was to bash themselves on my sign or get me to bash them and fall down
like --"
MR. SCHWARZ: I object to this. What is the relevance of this,
your Honor?
THE COURT: What is the relevance?
MR. HARR: He's peaceful and law-abiding. This is going to go on
to say that he avoided a confrontation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Thank you, Mr. Hoden. If you could please put
those away as best you can in that limited area there. Could you please
refer to 9A and 9.
A: Okay. I have both of them.
Q: Thank you. I believe 9A is the redacted version of what you
read this morning, or at least what you read this morning. And I'm
asking you if 9 is in fact the full text of the redacted 9A. I believe
the part that you read from this morning in 9 now would be the last two
paragraphs on page one of that document.
A: You're correct.
Q: I believe you read the first of those and then part of the
second one. I'd like to continue where the -- where you left off this
morning, if I might?
A: Sure.
Q: All right. That would be about mid paragraph, it begins with
"The Fruitvale"?
A: Okay. I'm there.
Q: "The Fruitvale apartments have a security guard playing
hide-and-seek in the bushes with a radio. I offered him --"
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Your objection, Counsel?
MR. SCHWARZ: It's -- to the in limine motion. We already talked
about this, your Honor,
MR. HARR: It's giving them -- may I respond, your Honor, or
should I not?
THE COURT: No. Just go ahead.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'm going to begin again, please. "The
Fruitvale apartments have a security guy playing hide-and-seek in the
bushes with a radio. I offered him an O.T.3 -- "
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, I thought that was sustained.
THE COURT: It was sustained.
MR. HARR: I'm sorry, your Honor. I thought -- I misunderstood.
THE COURT: It's sustained. Move along, Counsel.
MR. HARR: If I may make an offer, it was for issue of
peacefulness.
THE COURT: Calls for conclusion.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): If you'd please put those two exhibits away,
please, Mr. Hoden. If you could please refer to 23A and 23 for
identification.
A: Okay. I now have these.
Q: And I believe 23A is, in fact, what you read from this
morning?
A: Yes.
Q: I'm going to read what is the next paragraph after what you
read this morning, which I believe begins, "So."
THE COURT: Excuse me. Would Counsel approach please with the
reporter.
(The following proceedings were held at sidebar.)
THE COURT: Mr. Harr, unless you can lay a foundation for those
documents, I don't know why we should continue to allow you to read from
them.
MR. HARR: They were authenticated as Mr. Henson's postings.
THE COURT: But you haven't laid a foundation whether this witness
has seen them.
MR. HARR: I've asked him if these are in fact the full text of
the -
THE COURT: How does he know?
MR. HARR: He indicated that he recognized them.
THE COURT: Ask him again. I didn't hear it.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of
the jury.)
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you had a chance to look at Exhibit 23 for
identification?
A: Okay.
Q: Please take as much time as you need to, to look that over.
Have you had a chance to look it over?
A: Yeah, I've looked it over.
Q: Is that in fact the full text -- do you in fact recognize this
as the full text of the segment that you read that comprised 23A this
morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you. "So this week I will be back picketing Gold Base.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you picketed my house five days and my
wife's three days, so you get eight days of picket for this or however
much seems appropriate."
THE COURT: Is that the excised portion?
THE WITNESS: Well, that's on this one and it's not on this one.
THE COURT: So that's the excised portion.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): So it's -- so you were aware that people were
picketing Mr. Henson's in some capacity, at least his place -- his house
and his wife's place of work?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, asked and
answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, would you please put those two
exhibits away.
A: Yes.
Q: And would you please, if you would, I believe that next in
order, try to retrieve number 19A and 19 for identification.
A: Okay, I have those.
Q: I believe it's correct that you did in fact read 19A. Did you
read this? Do you recognize that from this morning as the item that you
read from?
A: Yes, I remember that.
Q: Thank you. If you would please take a moment or whatever time
you need to look at what has been marked 19A for -- 19 for
identification as previously been authenticated by the Court. And I ask
you if you recognize that as the full text of the portion that you read
this morning, which was entitled 19A?
A: Okay.
Q: Do you recognize that as the full text of the document that
you read?
A: Yes, this is the entire document.
Q: Thank you. I would like to invite your attention to the -- one
of the portions that you did not read, which is in the lower half of the
page, the front page of that, commencing with "I will." And I'd ask if
you recall reading that particular paragraph.
THE COURT: At what point, Counsel?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): The entire paragraph having to do with him
meeting -
THE COURT: No. Excuse me, Counsel. At what point in time? This
morning or prior to this morning?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Do you recall what day you read this document
initially, Mr. Hoden? It's dated, I believe, July 20th, 2000. Do you
recall when you read it?
A: Well, I would have likely read it on the 21st of July, which
was the day following.
Q: And isn't it true that this would indicate that Mr. Henson has
been meeting with local ministers?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. You can ask him if he read it.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, did you read the entire text of
Exhibit 19 on or about July 21st, 2000?
A: Yes.
Q: So you knew Mr. Henson was meeting with local ministers?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance.
MR. HARR: He is a peaceful guy -
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. I'll overrule the objection for
the moment, subject to a motion to strike.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Isn't it true that the reason that you want to stop Mr. Henson
picketing is that you want to silence him among the local ministers?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Thank you, Mr. Hoden. I'd like to retrieve those documents
from you.
A: I may have jumbled them up a little bit.
MR. HARR: That's okay. It's my job to make sure they're
straightened out. Thank you. No further questions, your Honor.
MR. SCHWARZ: Can I have the documents? Thank you. May I proceed
with re-redirect, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: May I approach the witness? I'm handing you back the documents
that you just gave Counsel. I only have a few questions for you as a
follow-up. Can you turn to find 8 -- what's been previously marked and
authenticated as People's Exhibit Number 8?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you have it in front of you?
A: Yes. I'm sorry, yes, I do.
Q: You do?
A: I do.
Q: Okay. Now, you were cut off before.What were you going to say
about Officer Lebs?
A: Lubes.
Q: Lubes?
A: Yes. Well, he came out and met with me, and he said, "Ken," he
says, "You're going to the wrong police agency." He
says, "We're the Highway Patrol, so we monitor what he's doing along the
highway. Although we'll post an officer down here, and if he walks out
into the highway then that would be our purview. But what he is doing is
a threatening action --"
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, motion to strike.
THE COURT: It calls for hearsay, Counsel. I'm going to sustain
the objection.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Without what you were being told, what was
said to you? What was the general gist of your conversation?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, hearsay.
MR. SCHWARZ: He opened the door, your Honor.
THE COURT: No, I think -- I think I agree, Counsel. I'm going to
sustain that objection.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: The witness can testify as to what his reaction was.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): What was your reaction?
A: They were sympathetic to my situation. They suggested I go to
the Riverside County Sheriff's Department, and they also suggested that
the action be brought to the District Attorneys and charges be filed.
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, no relevance.
THE COURT: Go ahead. Overruled.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. SCHWARZ: Well, yes, your Honor. Just a follow-up.
Q: What was the -- what was the problem with C.H.P. versus the
Sheriff's Department?
THE COURT: Counsel, that's all hearsay.
MR. SCHWARZ: That's fine, your Honor. I appreciate that.
THE COURT: That's if that's his feeling. You can ask him what he
felt about it and what he did as a result -
MR. SCHWARZ: I'll move on, your Honor. It's not that important,
anyway.
THE COURT: All right.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): I want to direct your attention to document
Number 23, what's been previously marked as People's Exhibit Number 23.
I want you to -- do you have it, Mr. Hoden?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you? Can you please open the little file folder? Can you --
can you read the portion above it, above "So"?
A: Yes. Shall I start with the word "You"?
Q: Please.
A: Okay. "You have a point. The only way I can get clear of this
Scientology mess is destroy them utterly."
Q: Okay. Now, Counsel read this portion, "This week I'll be back
picketing Gold Base. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you picketed my house
five days and my wife's place of work three days, so you get eight days
of picketing plus however much seems appropriate,"
and stopped reading. Would you please read the last four words?
A: Which line?
Q: Okay. May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach also, because we're going to
get into an area that's been off limits so far maybe.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. SCHWARZ: I'm just going to read just these last four words.
MR. HARR: You want to go there?
MR. SCHWARZ: No.
MR. HARR: Thank you.
MR. SCHWARZ: Withdrawn, your Honor. Withdrawn.
Q: Can we turn to Number 19? My apologies, Mr. Hoden.
A: Sure. Okay. I have 19.
Q: Can you read the part that starts with -- the first paragraph
starting "The funny," can you read that for the jury?
MR. HARR: I'm sorry, this is 19?
MR. SCHWARZ: Number 19. "The funny."
Q: Can you read that?
A: Which page?
Q: Page one, first paragraph, about halfway down.
A: Ah, yes.
Q: Starting with "The funny"?
A: Okay, good. "The funny part is that associating me with this
event is totally silly, because the Dora Kent events happened before I
got active in cryonics, as anyone who reads Great Mambo Chicken and the
Transhuman Condition would see."
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Counsel, anything?
MR. HARR: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Can this witness be excused?
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sir, thank you very much.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: I hope you don't think we're -
THE WITNESS: No, I've learned a lot. Not to talk so much.
MR. SCHWARZ: Actually, I'm sorry, your Honor. He cannot be
excused. Subject to recall.
THE COURT: All right. You understand that, Mr. Hoden? You're
subject to recall.
THE WITNESS: Okay. And I can -
THE COURT: Does the attorney have your phone number so he can
reach you if he chooses?
THE WITNESS: Yes, he does.
THE COURT: Okay. Your next witness, Counsel.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.The People would respectfully
call Detective Greer to the stand.
THE COURT: Would you page him, please.
THE DEPUTY: Yes, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, your Honor.
THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand, sir, and be sworn.
THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give in the case now pending before this Court shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and spell your name for the
record.
THE WITNESS: Anthony Greer, G-r-e-e-r.
THE COURT: All right, Counsel.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: I'm sorry it took so long, Detective Greer. For the record,
how are you employed?
A: I'm a detective with Riverside County Sheriff's Department for
20 years.
Q: And what type of training did you receive in order to hold
your position?
A: Eight hundred hours in the Sheriff's Academy, on-the-job
training, and just 20 years of being a cop.
Q: Okay. And how long have you actually been a detective?
A: Eleven years.
Q: Eleven years. Just in general terms, if you had to guess, how
many interviews have you conducted?
A: Thousands.
Q: Do you know Mr. Henson?
A: Yes.
Q: Keith Henson? Is he in the courtroom today?
A: Yes. He's at the defense table with the pretty white flower on
his jacket.
MR. SCHWARZ: May the record reflect that the witness has
identified the defendant?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Did you have an occasion to interview this individual?
A: Yes.
Q: In what context did you interview him?
A: It was in a -- to the follow-up of a case that was initiated
by patrol deputies.
Q: Okay. And where did this interview take place?
A: At the sheriff's station in Hemet.
Q: What was the -- what was the gist of the investigation?
A: There was allegations of threats against the Church of
Scientology at the Golden Era studios on Gilman Hot Springs.
Q: Okay. And you said that you were the follow-up deputy?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, where did this interview take place again? I'm sorry.
A: At the sheriff's station.
Q: At the sheriff's station. And how did Mr. Henson get to the
sheriff's station?
A: I contacted him at Golden Era Studios and asked him if he
would voluntarily come down to the station for an interview, and he
agreed.
Q: Okay. And how long did you interview him for?
A: Approximately an hour and-a-half.
Q: And did Mr. -- did you have occasion to give him a number of
postings? Did you give him anything?
A: Yes, internet postings.
Q: Internet postings?
A: Copies of them.
Q: Okay. My apologies to the Court, your Honor. May I approach
the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
Q: Detective Greer, I'm going to hand you a number of documents
that have been previously marked and authenticated. Do you recognize
them? They're 17 through 25, what's been previously marked as People's
17 through 25. Can you take a few seconds to thumb through them and tell
me if you recognize them? You can just tell me all at once if you want
so we don't waste anymore time.
A: Yes, I recognize them all.
Q: Okay. And how do you recognize them, sir?
A: These were postings that I showed to Mr. Henson during the
interview to authenticate.
Q: And did Mr. Henson acknowledge that they were his?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
THE COURT: Just a moment, Counsel.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes.
THE COURT: Did Mr. Henson acknowledge that he wrote all of those
documents?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Every part of all of those documents?
THE WITNESS: Not every part, no, sir.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, I don't mean to interrupt, but I think one
of those documents was removed because it was redundant of another one
is my recollection.
MR. SCHWARZ: That's fine. It won't be offered into evidence.
MR. HARR: Okay.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
Q: So he indicated that he wrote the postings that he -- that
were on the documents that were given to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, can you tell us the types of questions that you
asked Mr. Henson? How did the interview go?
MR. HARR: Objection, that's too broad. That would take most of
the afternoon. If we could maybe limit it to a specific area?
THE COURT: Can you limit it?
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, of course.
Q: All right. Did you talk to -- did you ask Mr. Henson about his
background in explosives?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: Mr. Henson said that in the early '70's he worked with
explosives professionally and as a hobby.
Q: Okay. Now, did you talk to him about the Great Chicken Mambo
and the Transhuman Condition?
A: Briefly.
Q: Did he say whether or not that the events, the events in --
that were recorded in that book were true?
A: He said he helped edit the book prior to it being published,
but that he wanted to edit it to make sure that it was correct, yes.
Q: But that he acknowledged that the events occurred?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So the events recorded in this book actually happened?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate whether or not he posted to an
explosives web site?
A: Yes. I believe it's at engineering explosives, I believe it's
engineering. At engineering explosives.
Q: And what did he say about that?
A: That's a web site that he rarely posts on, but he just browses
through it mainly. But he does post on it rarely.
Q: So he does post?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he talk about speaking to seventh graders about
explosives?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said he taught a class in pyrosafety, and I assumed it was
pyrotechnic safety, to seventh and eighth graders in Santa Clara Valley.
And basically the point that he wanted to get across to the seventh and
eighth graders was that it is, and I'm not sure of the exact words he
used, but it would be crazy -
MR. HARR: I would object, your Honor, because there is no
indication that this wasn't after the fact for the relevant period.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: He wanted to get across to the students that it
would be, in so many words, crazy to build a bomb or an explosives
device using a metal casing, that if they were going to build a bomb to
use paper casing or packaging.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So he wasn't discouraging from building a
bomb, but rather to change the casing?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he indicate whether or not he had worked for - did he
indicate whether or not he had worked for a geophysics company, and if
so what did he do?
A: He just mentioned the geophysics and that he blew things up for them in the desert with dynamite.
Q: Now, some of the postings that you showed to him, did Mr.
Henson know whether or not the Scientologists were actually getting
those postings?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for -
MR. SCHWARZ: It's an admission, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MR. SCHWARZ: It's going to be an admission, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let me hear the question again, please.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Did Mr. Henson ever indicate to you whether
he knew his postings were getting, in fact, to the Scientologists?
MR. HARR: I don't have an objection to that.
THE WITNESS: Yes, he did.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Did he explain how?
A: He said that he knew that the church had assigned a person,
specifically a woman, to monitor that web site, and even if I wanted her
name he could get it for me.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate how he knew about her?
A: No, he didn't say how, just that he knew.
Q: Okay. Now, did Mr. Henson talk about the events about the
G.P.S., concerning the global positioning system?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What did he say?
A: Well, there was -- I received a picture of Mr. Henson and
another male subject at the main gate of Golden Era
with this other subject holding a -- just a device in his hand. And
there was a posting about the G.P.S. reading. And I asked Mr. Henson
about it, and he said -- first he said yes, it was a G.P.S. reading. He
didn't have it, I believe it was a David Rice had it. And then later he
said that he wasn't sure it was a G.P.S., but David told him that it
was.
Q: But at first he admitted that he knew that it was a G.P.S.?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he talk about the buses? Did he talk about that at all to
you?
A: He talked about disrupting the workings of the church, that
they seemed to work out there 24/7. And I think without a specific quote
he said when he would show up out there it was like roaches when you
turn the light on, when he would show up they would scatter and hide and
disrupt their normal routine and work.
Q: So he knew that he was disrupting their routine?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate whether or not he knew they were afraid
of him?
A: I don't know that he specifically said "afraid."
THE COURT: Then do you know?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Okay, thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Not using the exact words "afraid," do
you know whether or not he had some knowledge of his effect on them?
A: Oh, yes.
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for a conclusion.
THE COURT: Well, I think it does.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Did he make any statements about psychological warfare?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me in what context did that term come up and what
he was -- and anything about it?
A: Basically that's the way he worded what he was doing to the
church, was psychological -- psychological warfare, or psychological
weaponry.
Q: Against the church?
A: Against the church.
Q: That's what he was doing?
A: Yes.
Q: And he said that to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he say anything about making them paranoid?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: What did he say about that?
A: That that was his sole purpose, was to make them paranoid and
he knew that he was.
Q: Is that what you mean about not knowing "afraid"?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. The same type of context, but not -
A: He use the the word "paranoid," but not "afraid."
Q: But in the general sense is that what the impression you got?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for a conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Did Mr. Henson ever mention anything about a cannon?
A: I'm sorry, I couldn't -
Q: I'm sorry. Did he mention anything about having a cannon?
A: A cannon?
Q: A cannon.
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said that when he was in the desert he has a silver --
civil war cannon, black, powder-type cannon that they used to fire off
in the desert.
Q: Now, did he say he still owned that cannon?
A: He said he owned it, but I believe he said he didn't bring it
to California because he didn't have room for it in California.
Q: So he owns the cannon still?
A: Yes.
THE COURT: Counsel, approach with the reporter, please.
(The following proceedings were held at sidebar.)
THE COURT: Counsel, I -- I don't understand the relevance of this
man knowing that the defendant had a cannon someplace.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor -
THE COURT: The witness -
MR. HARR: I agree, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, don't agree with me, Counsel. Don't make me run
this trial. You should take a part in it, too. But the point is this. We
get into such irrelevancy because your complaining witness, Mr. Hoden,
has indicated he was frightened because of various factors. This issue
now is totally irrelevant to any reason that Mr. Hoden was frightened.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, this goes to one of the elements, your
Honor, that we have to prove, is the element of fear. And the
reasonableness of that fear, your Honor. And in this case any person who
owns a cannon, the People would submit, is worthy of being afraid of.
THE COURT: That's absolutely correct. The Court could not argue
with that statement. However, there is no evidence that Mr. Hoden knew
about Mr. Henson's position with the cannon. That's what the Court
means. If you can tie it to Mr. Hoden's knowledge -
MR. SCHWARZ: I have two other victims, your Honor.
THE COURT: Then you do it with them.
MR. SCHWARZ: I'll do it with them.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of
the jury.)
MR. HARR: For the record I'll make an objection, lack of
foundation -
THE COURT: He's going to take a different approach. Go ahead,
Counsel.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
Q: In what -- I'll just move on. Did he reveal to you a general
plan he was following with respect to Golden Era Productions and
Scientologists?
A: To make them paranoid.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. I don't have any further questions for this
witness.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARR:
Q: Good afternoon.
A: Good afternoon.
Q: Did you tape Mr. Henson's interview?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ask you if you were going to tape his interview?
A: He asked me if I wanted to.
Q: And what did you respond?
A: That if he wanted me to I would.
Q: And did you in fact say that you weren't going to tape it,
that it wasn't necessary?
A: I don't believe I said it wasn't necessary.
Q: Did you write a report based on your interview with Mr.
Henson?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you bring that report with you today?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you reviewed that report before you testified today?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have an independent recollection of the matters that
you're testifying to here today?
A: Yes.
Q: During the course of your interview, Detective Greer, isn't it
true that Mr. Henson indicated that he started picketing Scientology
around 1995?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't he indicate during that interview that he believed
that his picketing had been very effective?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: And didn't he indicate that he thought that his picketing had
been very effective because numerous people either left the church or
had not entered due to the information he provided in his picketing?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't Mr. Henson indicate that he believed that the
Church of Scientology hated him because people were leaving the church
as a result of his picketing?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't he indicate that he thought that the church was
losing a lot of money -
MR. SCHWARZ: I have to object to this entire line of questioning,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's cross-examination.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may the People be heard at sidebar?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
(The following proceedings were held at sidebar.)
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, he can -- it is complete hearsay through
this witness. It's admission as to me, but he is a party opponent, and
he is trying to allow the defendant to testify without allowing him to
take the stand, your Honor. That's not permittable.
THE COURT: You want to respond?
MR. HARR: Your Honor, the motive -- one of the issues in this
case is whether the defendant thought that he was communicating a
threat. That was questioned on direct, he talked about paranoia.
THE COURT: I'm not going to permit you to cross-examine this
witness on whether he knows about something else. If you are -- you
limit your cross-examination to this witness's ability to recall what
occurred in that meeting, otherwise I'm going to sustain the objection.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of the jury.)
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Now, isn't it true regarding the testimony you
previously gave about the Mambo Chicken Book that Mr. Henson indicated
that he did not get an opportunity to make any corrections that he
thought were necessary to that book?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you, in fact, ask Mr. Henson if he had any intention of
physically harming Scientologists?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't he respond -
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, same objection, your Honor, at sidebar.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what's changed, Counsel. Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Didn't Mr. Henson indicate that his reason for
picketing is political -
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Have you reviewed a transcript of the testimony
that -- excuse me. That's a misstatement. Have you had an opportunity to
review the typed transcript of the taped interview that you did with Mr.
Henson that you've been testifying about here this afternoon?
A: Yes.
Q: I'd like to read something to you and see if this might -
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. Have you shown the officer a copy of the transcript?
THE WITNESS: I have one, your Honor. I have one with me, sir. If
you can just tell me what page.
THE COURT: Tell him what page, Counsel.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): On mine it's page 3.
A: Three?
Q: Yes. It may not be page 3 on yours, but -
THE COURT: Well, why wouldn't it be, Counsel? In which case
you're reading from the wrong transcript.
MR. HARR: The one that I have is -- starts at the top with
"H.K.H. colon, my story."
THE WITNESS: Nope. Mine doesn't start with that.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): What does yours start with?
A: "H.K.H., anyway, the scoop on this thing."
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach the witness so I can
correlate what I believe would be -
THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Schwarz, you want to approach also so you can
check it out?
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor, People would like to.
MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: On the transcript I believe "T.G.", is it your understanding
that "T.G." refers to yourself?
THE COURT: Have a seat, Mr. Schwarz.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, I am.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): And is it your understanding having previously
reviewed the transcript that H.K.H. refers to Mr.
Henson?
A: Yes.
Q: "T.G., You're not under arrest. The only reason --"
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, lack of foundation.
MR. HARR: Mr. -
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HARR: Detective Greer previously testified that he did not
indicate -- that he hid the fact that he was interviewing -
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I be heard on that?
THE COURT: I think the witness testified that he did not tape
record the session.
MR. HARR: We have a transcript of the tape recording, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, then you can ask him about that.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Is this a transcript of the tape recording that
you made of that interview, Detective Greer?
A: Yes.
Q: "H.K.H., I'll back up. "T.G., You're not under arrest. The
only reason we closed the door is so we can have privacy. You are free
to go at any time, and at no time today am I going to arrest you.
"H.K.H., For something kind of problems do you want to tape it? "T.G., I don't see any need to unless you feel more
comfortable if I taped it. "H.K.H., I got a tape recorder. If you want
to I can tape it and leave you with the tape. "T.G., No, that's fine.
That's fine. I'll just take some notes. And you know, because there is
an investigation, I just need to let you know that you are not under
arrest." This is a totally voluntary interview?
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, the question before was
whether or not he thought it was necessary.
THE COURT: No, the question was whether he taped it. What is your
next question, Counsel?
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you led the defendant to
believe that this session was not being taped?.
MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No.
Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you told him it wasn't going
to be taped?
A: I just told him that I wouldn't tape it unless he wanted me to
tape it.
Q: So you believe that's what this means? "No, that's fine,
that's fine. I'll just take some notes and, you know, because there is
an investigation I just need to let you know that you are not under
arrest." Didn't you just tell him that you were just going to take some notes?
A: Yes. But you specifically asked me if I told him that I wasn't
going to tape it, and I didn't tell him that.
Q: That's true, you didn't specifically say, "I am not going to
tape it." But when he asked -
MR. SCHWARZ: I'm -
THE COURT: Counsel -
MR. HARR: I'll move on. Thank you, your Honor. .No further
questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: I want to direct your attention to in your report - do you
have it handy?
A: Yes.
Q: Detective Greer? To page 5, lines 34 through 36.
A: Okay.
MR. HARR: What page was that, please?
MR. SCHWARZ: Page 5, 34 through 36. Something like that. About
the Mambo Chicken Book.
Q: Do you see that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Henson indicate whether or not the events in the
book were in fact true?
A: Mostly true.
Q: Right. Okay. Did he indicate which was not true of the
portions you showed to him?
A: No.
Q: So he didn't -- when you showed him the Mambo Chicken Book did he say, "No, no, no, that's not true"?
A: Actually, it wasn't the book. It was inserts from the book.
But no, he didn't say that.
Q: He didn't scream up and down. And the excerpts from the book,
did that deal with atomic explosions and stuff like that?
A: Yes.
Q: So when you showed it to him he didn't object and he didn't
say, "That's not true"?
A: Correct.
Q: About the whole taping thing, since we're going to get back,
just to follow up with Mr. Harr's question about the taping thing, the
interview rooms, tell us about your interview rooms. How do they work?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, relevance.
MR. SCHWARZ: It goes directly to it if the witness will be
allowed to answer, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I think it's getting into the 352 area. Go ahead
and answer the question. Overruled. You can answer that question
briefly.
THE WITNESS: The interview rooms are set up to tape people.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Did you push a button?
A: No.
Q: It just does it?
A: Well, no. You have to set it up to do it, it doesn't just do
it on its own. But the recording device is not in
the same room, no.
Q: And you didn't push the button for recording, I mean, when it
happened during this conversation?
A: Not during the conversation. I pushed it prior to going into
the room.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. Thank you.
MR. HARR: I will be brief, your Honor, if I might.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARR:
Q: So at the time you told Mr. Henson you were just going to take
notes, the tape recorder was running; is that correct?
A: Yes.
MR. HARR: Thank you.
MR. SCHWARZ: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Can this witness be excused subject to
recall?
MR. SCHWARZ: Subject to recall, your Honor.
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Detective Greer.
THE WITNESS: Do these stay here, your Honor, or do they go
somewhere?
MR. SCHWARZ: I'll take it. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Good luck.
THE COURT: Would Counsel approach without the reporter, please.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE COURT: Call your next witness, please.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I check outside to make sure Mr.
Hackermann is still here?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. People would respectfully call Mr. Wayne
Hackermann.
THE COURT: Mr. Hackermann, would you come up here, please.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Please face the clerk and raise your
right hand.
THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give in the case now pending before this Court shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE CLERK: Please be seated, and state and spell your name for
the record.
THE WITNESS: Wayne Albert Hackermann, W-a-y-n-e, A-l-b-e-r-t,
H-a-c-k-e-r-m-a-n-n.
THE COURT: All right, Counsel.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: Mr. Hackermann, where do you work?
A: I'm a dispatcher for Hemet Ready Mix.
Q: And how long have you held that position?
A: I've been with the company about 30 years. I've been the dispatcher for six.
Q: Okay. And how long have you lived here in the valley?
A: Forty-seven years.
Q: Forty-seven years. Okay. Have you ever met the defendant, Mr.
Henson?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Well, first of all, have you ever seen Mr. Henson?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you please point him out and -
THE COURT: Is he the gentleman sitting at the end of counsel
table?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: For the record the defendant.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: What were the circumstances of your meeting?
A: He come into my dispatch office one day and asked some
questions about our trucks that were pouring at Golden Era.
Q: And what question did he ask?
A: What we were pouring and -- basically.
Q: All right. Did he say anything about a bomb shelter?
A: He asked if we were -
MR. HARR: Objection, leading, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Well, he asked if we were pouring a bomb shelter.
And I said no, we were pouring colored concrete for
sidewalks.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay.In all the time that you've been in the
concrete business, has anyone ever asked you if someone was building a
bomb shelter?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, no relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay.
Q: So your testimony is that he inquired about building a bomb
shelter?
A: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. No further questions.
THE COURT: Anything?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARR:
Q: Mr. Hackermann, I don't mean to belabor this, talking about
building a bomb shelter. Nobody was talking about building a bomb
shelter; is that correct?
A: No. He just asked me if that's what we were pouring. If we had
poured one. If that's what we were doing that day, is pouring a bomb
shelter.
Q: And you just obliged him by saying it is a sidewalk or
whatever?
A: Yeah.
MR. HARR: All right. Thank you.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have one redirect question.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHWARZ:
Q: What was the time? And I apologize I didn't ask this question.
Can you approximate what day this was? Was this in what year, last year,
the year before?
A: Oh, I -- I have no -- six, nine months ago.
Q: Between May, 2000 -
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, leading.
THE COURT: Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Six to nine months ago?
MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, leading.
THE COURT: He said six to nine months. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't remember the exact.
Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): The exact dates?
A: No.
Q: But six to nine months ago?
A: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARZ: I appreciate that. Thank you.
MR. HARR: No questions.
THE COURT: Thank you. That was tough, wasn't it?
THE WITNESS: Just sat in the hallway.
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we have obviously not
finished. We have another witness that may or -- may take the rest of
the afternoon, and maybe part of Tuesday, which is our next session. So
that Counsel has a chance to put that witness on at one time so that you
don't get the testimony piecemeal, and because it's Friday afternoon,
kind of get-away date today, we'll recess or adjourn a little early. And
we'll let you go now. Instead of giving you a recess and asking you to
come back in 15 minutes, we'll ask you to come back
Tuesday morning. Let me ask Counsel, is there any reason why either
Counsel can't be here at 9:00 o'clock on Tuesday morning?
MR. SCHWARZ: No, your Honor.
MR. HARR: No, your Honor.
MR. SCHWARZ: But before the jury is dismissed, your Honor, may I
approach the bench with respect to an admonishment?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE COURT: Counsel reminded the Court, let me just remind you of
a couple of things. You've heard about an internet site, you've heard
about the particular location in question. I'm going to ask you or
remind you that there is a standing court order that you not do any
experiments, that you not go out to the site, that you not look at the
internet any more than you would have had this not been the trial. I
also want to caution you about any press renditions of what occurred.
It's more than likely that there might be a story -- well, that's kind
of a dumb statement, isn't it? It's more than likely. It's possible that
there will be a statement in the press of something that occurred here.
You'll recall the Court's admonition early on. We request that you not
read any stories, don't form any opinions. I'm certain that many of you
have them now. And that's okay. Don't share them with anybody. Please
don't talk to anybody at home, or in the jury, or
anywhere else until we give you the case, which should possibly be
Tuesday afternoon. Have a pleasant weekend. Drive carefully. And we'll
see you 9:00 o'clock Tuesday morning. Thank you.
(The jury exited the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Okay. Counsel, I'm going to again request that Counsel
get here at 8:45. If you have something that you want us to record, if
you want to be here at 8:30 I'll be here at 8:30. I actually will be
here at 8:00, but I don't expect you to be here at 8:00.
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, there may be, since we're going to be
taking up on Tuesday the jury instructions, and I'm sure that the Court
does not want to delay the jurors any more than necessary, I would
respectfully request that we meet here at 8:30 and then go over our
proposed jury instructions.
THE COURT: Sure glad to do it.
MR. HARR: Maybe we could do the proposed verdict form and all
that.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. We'll see you at 8:30.
MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. Have a nice weekend.
THE COURT: Thank you, you, too. Court's adjourned. What happened
to those other questions that we had? I think this is another question.
I knew it would come. I was surprised that neither of you offered -
PAGE 296 OF TRANSCRIPT MISSING.
HEMET, CALIFORNIA - TUESDAY, APRIL 24, 2001
MORNING SESSION
(The following proceedings were held in open court outside of the
presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. SCHWARZ: Good morning, your Honor.
MR. HARR: Good morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Has Counsel -- I don't know who submitted the
jury instructions.
MR. SCHWARZ: The People, your Honor. The People submitted the
motion -
THE COURT: I mean the -
MR. SCHWARZ: -- motion in support, yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: I mean the verdict forms.
MR. SCHWARZ: Yes. The People submit, we always do.
THE COURT: All right. Have you looked at the verdict forms?
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. HARR: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's talk about the proposed additional jury
instructions. Do you wish to be heard, Counsel?
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor, thank you. The People's brief on the
terrorist threat and the interference proposed instructions, first of
all, I don't see any need to use any instruction other than the
C.A.L.J.I.C. instructions that are drafted for this purpose. The
terrorist threat instruction, 9.94, that Counsel sets out in his motion
more than addresses all the issues that are raised
in his brief. A threat is a threat or it isn't a threat. The jury -- the
People have redacted the reports. And now they're saying we should take
the context and the tone, they discuss tone in their report. I don't
know about tone. I mean, there isn't anything in the messages about
tone. I know Mr. Hoden read them. But as far as the issue of specific
intent, all three are specific intent crimes, that's laid out in the
standard instructions. The other standard instruction on interference is
16.500. All of these have been tried and true. Most of the cases that
Counsel cites, none of them -- well, actually, none of them show that
the Supreme Court has in any way thought that this novel instruction
somehow fits the bill. However, the other C.A.L.J.I.C. instruction
certainly has been around since 1999, and Defense sees no reason not to
use it.
THE COURT: Is that it?
MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Counsel?
MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, as the People noted in its motion in
support of the jury instruction, the C.A.L.J.I.C. itself lays out the
fact that when case law is subsequent to or in addition to the letter
describes the C.A.L.J.I.C., the Court is actually -- it is suggested
that the Court actually use the additional case law to better explain to
the jury what the state of the law is as of this date. The '99 revision,
your Honor, was actually written in '98. And it doesn't include cases
such as In Re Ricky T. or Lopez or Mendoza. And if
you read the C.A.L.J.I.C. as itself, it makes it seem as though -- that
it has to be the only -- the only threat that qualifies as a threat is
if you, you know, have a gun and you say, "I'm going to kill." That's
the -- that's the way the jury instruction reads, your Honor. And that's
not the state of the law now. As the People have put in their motion in
support thereof, you can use surrounding circumstances. You can use
context. In fact, you can make a threat vicariously to somebody else.
You don't even have to do it directly. So none of these instructions are
reflected in the -- are reflected in the actual C.A.L.J.I.C., and that's
the reason why it's in addition to. I'm sure the Court is well aware
that the People or Defense usually will add something to it, that's why
we're having this meeting. And while it's true that the Supreme Court
itself is not -- the People have submitted District Court of Appeal
opinions, your Honor, that have not been reversed by the Supreme Court
and apparently has felt no necessity to do so. And your Honor, as -- if
the Court would like a copy of the People's -- of the actual cases
themselves, the People could provide a copy. But the way the
C.A.L.J.I.C. is written right now, your Honor, does not reflect what the
current state of what 422 is, and I don't think that Counsel makes it
very clear that he doesn't disagree with the People. His argument is
actually, well, the C.A.L.J.I.C. is the C.A.L.J.I.C., let's just use it,
you know, that's what the book says. But that's clearly not the case,
your Honor. The law has developed and expanded, and it should include these things because that's the way when the
charge was brought, your Honor, we were -- we were relying on these
cases, your Honor, which in fact encompass the facts and circumstances
surrounding this case. With that the People would submit.
MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I be heard briefly on this?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HARR: The leeway that Counsel is asking for to prove the
People's case is addressed in the C.A.L.J.I.C. instruction. For example,
I think the issue that Counsel is concerned about is whether he can
prove that there is a threat or not. The fourth element in 422 is, "The
threatening statement on its face and under the circumstances in which
it was made was so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate and specific as
to convey to the person threatened a gravity of purpose and an immediate
prospect of execution of the threat." That leaves a huge amount of
leeway for the jury to decide what's going on. That jury instruction
does not say, "Okay, unless I've got a gun in your face there's no
threat." That's ridiculous. It says, look under the circumstances, look
at what's going on here, and decide in your mind if there is a threat. I
really am not agreeing with Counsel that the C.A.L.J.I.C. instruction is
just -- we ought to use it because it's there. That's not the case. It's
more than adequate in the defense's opinion, your Honor. Thank you.
Go to next part of transcript
Go to previous part of transcript
Back to index